Doctor, Doctor Gimme the News...

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 2:00 am

This testimony I used was from the LABVML.

Dr. Bowens trial testimony page 297-

Q. Have you been the family physician for some time?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. For how long sir?
A. I should say a dozen years probably.

Q. During that time you have had social as well as business, ---professional relations?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Have you at all visited at the house?
A. Very seldom except on business.

Q. What has been your dealing with them largely, --- professional or social?
A. About equal.

Q. About equal?
A. Yes, sir.

If it was about equally social and professional, why did he say he seldom visited the house except on business? Where did the social relations come into play? I know this has been raised before, but it's never satisfactorily been explained for me.

Page 317:

Q.Then as I understand it, although you had heard that Mrs. Borden was dead , and that she was in the front room, and you went up there to see, you did not get any view until you had gone up those stairs, and had come to the door leading to the guest chamber?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And then, by looking over the bed, you saw her form between the bureau and the bed?
A. Yes, sir.

Is it just me, or would that have been impossible? Look how high the top of the bed was from the floor, and how close to it Abby lay. Dr. Bowen couldn’t have just peered over the bed, he would’ve had to come across the bed to see her, or come around the side of the bed. But just to peer over it?

Page 329:
Q. Does not morphine given in double doses to allay mental distress and nervous excitement somewhat effect the memory and change and alter the view of things and give people hallucinations?
A.Yes, sir.

This is why he gave her morphine. Not because she was addicted to any drugs. But I have always wondered, if he knew there was going to be an ongoing investigation, and Lizzie was one of the main witnesses, why give her a drug that he admitted doctors were supposed to know would effect the memory unless there was a reason behind it? Did Dr. Bowen want to give Lizzie a valid excuse to "misremember" ? Sort of a far of notion, but a lot of the notions entertained in this case have been pretty far off. I don't really believe Lizzie just had a fuzzy memory. Because it does not account for her beginning to contradict herself before any drugs were administered.

I have also always wondered why it was testified that Lizzie didn’t recognize Pheobe Bowen when she came over to the house. Why she asked “Who is that woman?”

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 2:49 am

"I have also always wondered why it was testified that Lizzie didn’t recognize Pheobe Bowen when she came over to the house. Why she asked 'Who is that woman?' "

--The actual quote: "Lizzie asked who this was that made the sound:"

Prelim
Mrs. Dr. Bowen
Page 478

PHEBE BOWEN.

Q. (Mr. Jennings) What is your name?
A. Phebe Bowen.
Q. You are the wife of Dr. Bowen?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You are a friend of Miss Lizzie and Miss Emma?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You have known the Borden family all your life, have you?
A. I think I have always known Emma Borden, and have known Miss Lizzie since she has lived on the street, twenty years.
Q. You have lived at the same house all your life?
A. Always.
Q. And have been in the habit of going there frequently?
A. Yes.
Q. And were very friendly with them?
A. Yes.
.....
479
A. She did. She rang my bell, and said Miss Lizzie wanted me to come over.
Q. Did you go over then?
A. I was delayed a few seconds, and then I went over.
Q. When you got over there, who did you see there?
A. Miss Lizzie Borden, Miss Alice Russell, Mrs. Churchill, Bridget Sullivan, and I do not remember whether Mr. Sawyer was at the door when I went in. He was there when I came out.
Q. Where was Lizzie when you first went in?
A. She was sitting in the rocking chair in the kitchen.
......

480
Q. Did you go away before Lizzie went into the dining room?
A. I came out just, I think, as she was going in. Miss Russell asked Lizzie if she would go into the dining room, if she would take the chair in, as she thought it was cooler in that room. Somebody asked for a fan, and Lizzie told Bridget to go into the dining room closet and get the fan. We went into the dining room. I made a sound when they told me Mrs. Borden was dead. I sat in a chair back of Lizzie, where she was sitting. Lizzie asked who this was that made the sound. They told her Mrs. Bowen.
Q. That sort of upset you when you heard Mrs. Borden was dead?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you go home then?
A. Yes, they told me I was not fit to stay.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:29 am

Is it just me, or would that have been impossible? Look how high the top of the bed was from the floor, and how close to it Abby lay. Dr. Bowen couldn’t have just peered over the bed, he would’ve had to come across the bed to see her, or come around the side of the bed. But just to peer over it?

Dr. Bowen makes it sound as though he just casually walked in the door of the guest room and was able to see over the top of the bed and see Abby. It sounds impossible to me too! The only way I think he could have seen Abby was to walk up to the side of the bed closest to the door and look over. And then I think he wouldn't have seen all of Abby's body, just the portions closest to the dresser next to her. I guess it helped that he knew what he was looking for and where. Do we have any info on how tall Dr. Bowen was, it might make a difference as to the angle of his sightline.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:03 am

Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 2:29 am Post subject:

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Quote:
Is it just me, or would that have been impossible? Look how high the top of the bed was from the floor, and how close to it Abby lay. Dr. Bowen couldn’t have just peered over the bed, he would’ve had to come across the bed to see her, or come around the side of the bed. But just to peer over it?

Dr. Bowen makes it sound as though he just casually walked in the door of the guest room and was able to see over the top of the bed and see Abby. It sounds impossible to me too! The only way I think he could have seen Abby was to walk up to the side of the bed closest to the door and look over. And then I think he wouldn't have seen all of Abby's body, just the portions closest to the dresser next to her. I guess it helped that he knew what he was looking for and where. Do we have any info on how tall Dr. Bowen was, it might make a difference as to the angle of his sightline.

Besides maybe being tall, could Dr. Bowen have seen Abby's body through the mirror over the dressing table/dresser ? I would think since he knew what he was looking for as he went up the front stairs, he would almost certainly have at least had some sort of 'glance' (under the bed) at Abby's body as he came up the stairs. Thus, giving him an idea of exactly 'where' to 'look' as he reached the doorway of the guest room. So, maybe he saw more because he knew what he was looking for and where to look ?

Tracy...

john · Post by **john** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:44 am

Now you've skirted something that is REALLY interesting. Why, in a time of immense grief for Lizzie et all, when Lizzie needed support of supposed "friends," would Mrs. Bowen be asked to leave when all she was doing was sitting in a chair behind Lizzie?
Was the sound Mrs. Bowen made that of passing gas? Was she a crudie?
Did someone (Lizzie?) think that Mrs. Bowen might see things that had, or were about to happen differently than Alice Russell or Mrs. Churchill would?
Who asked Mrs. Bowen to leave? Lizzie probably was in control at the time.
Was Mrs. Bowen a "love" threat to Lizzie regarding Dr. Bowen?

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:10 am

Well, my take on it is that Phebe became extremely agitated, sobbing, perhaps (what they used to call "in a state") and cooler heads felt her grief might not be helpful to Lizzie at that time.

And, having been in the guest bedroom more than once (I've even slept there), I think Bowen's language is very confusing. He certainly couldn't have peered over the expanse of the bed and seen her, nor would he have been tall enough to see her reflection in the bureau. My guess is that he meant that as he came around the foot of the bed he saw her corpse, and it was this moment that stuck in his head.

john · Post by **john** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:56 am

Larry L. of Tuscaloosa just won a free trip for three to Hawaii at the "Uncle John Killed Abbey" site! Have you been there? Win a trip!
Oops - Larry L. is from Schenectittie, and it's Larry M. M.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 12:52 pm

theebmonique @ Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:03 am wrote:
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 2:29 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Is it just me, or would that have been impossible? Look how high the top of the bed was from the floor, and how close to it Abby lay. Dr. Bowen couldn’t have just peered over the bed, he would’ve had to come across the bed to see her, or come around the side of the bed. But just to peer over it?

Dr. Bowen makes it sound as though he just casually walked in the door of the guest room and was able to see over the top of the bed and see Abby. It sounds impossible to me too! The only way I think he could have seen Abby was to walk up to the side of the bed closest to the door and look over. And then I think he wouldn't have seen all of Abby's body, just the portions closest to the dresser next to her. I guess it helped that he knew what he was looking for and where. Do we have any info on how tall Dr. Bowen was, it might make a difference as to the angle of his sightline.

Besides maybe being tall, could Dr. Bowen have seen Abby's body through the mirror over the dressing table/dresser ? I would think since he knew what he was looking for as he went up the front stairs, he would almost certainly have at least had some sort of 'glance' (under the bed) at Abby's body as he came up the stairs. Thus, giving him an idea of exactly 'where' to 'look' as he reached the doorway of the guest room. So, maybe he saw more because he knew what he was looking for and where to look ?

Tracy...

This bed is not twin bed. Even with the aid of the mirror I do not think he could've seen Abby as he described he did. Try it. Have someone lay down on the floor by the bed in the same position as Abby, and then try to peer over the bed from the other side to see them. I've also slept in the guest room twice, and I know the size of the bed. I think it's impossible. But he was quite clear thats what he did.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:55 pm

I myself am a two-timer in the guest room. I tried to imagine what he could have seen, using my 'practical' experience. Last time I stayed in the house, I had my niece lie on the floor in Abby's position, while I went down to the bottom of the stairs...turned around and came back up. I just wanted to, for fun, see what the people saw "that day" as they came upstairsI could see her lying there as my eyes reached the landing level, but as I took the last few stairs, I lost sight of her. As I entered the guest room, I could see her feet sticking out from the end of the bed, but that's it. I had to put a knee up on the south side of the bed, and supportmyself with my arms to be able to look over and see that she was lying in the same position an Abby had. It was then, seeing myself in the mirror, I decided to go back out and see if I could see her in the mirror...but being only 5'1", I was not tall enough to be able to have the angle to see what was on the floor...via the dressing table mirror.

I have the same questions as Susan...Do we know if maybe Dr. Bowen was tall enough that he may not have had to lean on the bed to see over it as I did, but could see Abby's body through the mirror ? But I suppose if he had looked in the mirror, he would have mentioned it.

This may be a little thing, but I noticed that in the posted testimony, it's not Dr. Bowen who actually said he had looked over the bed, but the attorney questioning him about it who said it.

Page 317:

Q.Then as I understand it, although you had heard that Mrs. Borden was dead , and that she was in the front room, and you went up there to see, you did not get any view until you had gone up those stairs, and had come to the door leading to the guest chamber?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And then, by looking over the bed, you saw her form between the bureau and the bed?
A. Yes, sir.

Tracy...

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 2:53 pm

theebmonique @ Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:55 pm wrote:

This may be a little thing, but I noticed that in the posted testimony, it's not Dr. Bowen who actually said he had looked over the bed, but the attorney questioning him about it who said it.

Page 317:

Q.Then as I understand it, although you had heard that Mrs. Borden was dead , and that she was in the front room, and you went up there to see, you did not get any view until you had gone up those stairs, and had come to the door leading to the guest chamber?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And then, by looking over the bed, you saw her form between the bureau and the bed?
A. Yes, sir.

Tracy...

Yes, he was asking him questions about testimony he had already given. Attorney's do things like this to make sure they have the testimony straight, or reinforce the testimony given.

Dr. Bowen's trial testimony page 307-308:

Q. That is you left Mrs. Churchill there when you went away?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you met her on your return?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And what was said then?
A. She said, "They have found Mrs. Borden."

Q. What did you do?
A. I asked the question, "Where?" She said, " Upstairs in the front room."

Q. Proceed, sir, with what you did.
A. She said-- shall I repeat the conversation?

Q. Yes.
A. She said I had better go up and see. I went directly through the dining- room and the corner of the sitting-room into the front hall, up the stairs --- front stairs--- and stopped a moment at the door of the front chamber---guest chamber, front bedroom. At that point I looked over the bed and saw the prostrate form of Mrs. Borden.

Q. Where were you standing, Doctor, when you saw the form of Mrs. Borden?
A. Directly in the door of the room.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:13 pm

I do understand about how attorney's 'question'. Pardon me for not reading all of Dr. Bowen testimony on this subject before posting. I should have been more careful.

Tracy...

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:18 pm

Tracy I wanted to ask if you have received any of my PM's. I have tried to PM you several times, but I am not sure you are receiving them?

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:33 pm

Melissa, check your PM's. I just sent you one.

Tracy...

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:32 pm

Well, I'm 5'11", and I wouldn't have been able to see the floor on the other side of the bed in the bureau mirror. and, given the press of the time and their often nasty descriptions of the trial participants, I bet an over-six-foot Dr. Bowen would''ve been worth a mention!

I'll go with the above experiments, and suppose that Bowen either leaned on the bed itself, or came around it, and later phrased it badly.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:26 pm

I am sure we will all "re-try" the experiments this summer...and we should. I am glad whatsherface and I will be staying 2 nights, because we will need at least an entire day and night just to "check things out" with testimony and Rebello in hand...and another to just sit back and enjoy the 'Lizzie experience'. I swear I get more excited each time I go.

Was Dr. Bowen a "Nervous Nellie" type ?

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:44 pm

At trial, they were getting at whether someone (Lizzie) could have seen Abby's body from the area in front of her own bedroom. If she had been on the stairs when her father came home and laughed, she would have been in sight of Bridget and Andrew. So they want to show Lizzie was not on the stairs looking at Abby's body thru the stair rails when she laughed, and also could not have been standing at her own bedroom doorway when she laughed and still have seen Abby.

Further down included find Mrs. Brigham. She made an experiment.
I think what she and Bowen are describing is that they could see the feet projecting past the bed from different vantage points according to their heights and that they were aware to look. The *body* might then mean any part of the body seen.

Trial
Kieran
Page 109

Q. This plan will show the size of those closets, will it, by measurements?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you make any experiments as to what could be seen of an object between the bureau and the bed in the room upstairs over the parlor?
A. I did.

Q. Now tell us what you did.
A. I had my assistant lay down on the floor in the guest room, between the bed and the bureau.

Q. How large is he?
A. He is just about my size?

Q. And how tall are you?
A. I don't know sir.

Q. Well.
A. Then I went down stairs and came up the stairs in the middle of the stairs, as I would if I had not been trying to see this man.

...................
Page 110

Q. Now, tell us what you saw and what you did not see.
A. Under the bed, as I went up stairs, I saw the man stretched on the floor. I did not see him in any other way.

Q. Well, what were you doing when you saw him under the bed, and where were you on the stairs?
A. I was looking for him while I was going up the stairs.

Q. What do you mean,---looking to see if there was any point at which you could see him?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And what was that point?
A. It was from the centre of one of the stairs which brought my eye a little above the level of the floor. From that point I could see under the bed, and see this man, or part of him.

Q. Could you at any other point, in passing up the stairs, except the point where your eye was just on a level with the floor?
A. Well, a short distance above there brought my eye above the level of the bottom of the bed, and then I could not see him from any other point.

Q. And that you say was when you were particularly looking to see?
A. Do I understand your question?

Q. And that you say was when you were particularly looking to see him?
A. Yes, sir, when I tried to see him.

. .................

111

Q. How was it when you stood upon the floor of the hall upstairs, in front of the door which we will call Miss Lizzie's room?
A. I couldn't see him.

Q. Do you know whether the position of the bed and the bureau, as you had it that day you were taking the observations, corresponded at all with what it was when Mrs. Borden's body was found?
A. I do not.

Q. Were you requested to take measurements by Dr. Dolan, the medical examiner, or Mr. Hilliard, of the distance between the bureau and the bed at any time?
A. I was.

Q. How soon after the tragedy?
A. I went there at Dr. Dolan's request on the 16th of August.

Q. Do you know whether the bed and the bureau were adjusted in their positions at that time for you to take measurements by Mr. Hilliard or by Dr. Dolan?
A. I do not.

...............
Page 113

Q. Do you know how tall he was?
A. I only know he is about my size.

Q. Did his feet project beyond the edge of the bed?
A. They did.

Q. As you stood in the hall did you stand in the hall in front of Miss Lizzie's door and look for him?
A. I did.

Q. Could you see any portion of his body from that position?
A. No, sir.

Q. Do you know how far his feet projected beyond the foot of the bed?
A. I do not.

Q. Do you know the length of the bed?
A. Yes, sir. It is six feet and seven inches.

Q. Could you see his feet from any portion of the stairs?
A. I could not.

_______

Trial
Mrs. Brigham
1591
Q. Now I will ask you if you made any experiment at the house in regard to whether you could see a person lying down between the bed and the bureau while you were standing in the hall?

MR. KNOWLTON. I should take your Honors' judgment as to that.

MASON, C. J. If that question is to be admitted, there must be further description of the conditions. That is a preliminary question?

MR. JENNINGS. That is all, sir. I shall endeavor to follow it up.

MR. KNOWLTON. Your Honors do not understand me to object to that particular question, but to the whole matter.

(Question repeated.)

A. I did.

Q. About what distance was the bed from the bureau, as near as you can judge?
A. I should think about three feet.

Q. Was the bureau up against the wall in its usual place?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. The bed in its usual place?
A. I think so.

Q. Who was the person with whom you made the experiment?
A. Mr. Morse.

Q. What did he do?
A. Laid down on the floor.

Page 1592

Q. Where?
A. Between the dressing case and the bed.

Q. How did you stand,---did you stand in the hall and in front of that door to see whether you could see him or not?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Could you see him?
A. I could not see him from the hall. A person of my height could not see him from the doorway. When I advanced a few feet into the room, I saw him.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:48 pm

I am almost sure someone testified that Lizzie asked who Pheobe Bowen was. They said it in reference to a question concerning whether or not Lizzie seemed to show any signs of shock. I am going over all the testimony. I know I wouldn't sit and wonder about such a statement if it was just asked "who made that noise".Though I still may be incorrect. Based on the amount of testimony, this could take awhile.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:12 pm

If you have the answer does the question really matter? The question is not sworn testimony anyway.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:51 pm

Melissa, you're not the only one to have read that line somewhere, I did too in the past and can't recall where. Heres the thread from the archives for what its worth:

63. "Re: Morse--A Real Character"
Posted by Susan on Apr-6th-03 at 3:44 PM
In response to Message #62.
When Mrs. Bowen entered the Borden house wasn't Lizzie supposed to have said something like, who is that woman? I can't remember where I read that, an author other than Lincoln? But, how strange is that, why wouldn't Lizzie know Bowen's wife when she saw her?

Or, was Lizzie in denial since she was possibly having a little fling with her husband, she denies Bowen's wife's existence, no guilt.

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64. "Re: Morse--A Real Character"
Posted by Kat on Apr-6th-03 at 4:20 PM
In response to Message #63.
I think Lizzie sent for Mrs. Dr. Bowen, so I was under the impression that she knew her.
The thing about Mrs. Dr. Bowen was, and it READS sort of complicated in the testimony (see Mrs. Bowen, Prelim.)
But that what happened was when the women all moved to the dining room, Phoebe was behind Lizzie and made a shocked sound and Lizzie asked who is that?
Like who made that sound?
(I guess she didn't look for herself....)

Yes, here it is, that the two were known to each other:
Prelim.
Page 478
PHEBE BOWEN.

Q. (Mr. Jennings) What is your name?
A. Phebe Bowen.
Q. You are the wife of Dr. Bowen?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You are a friend of Miss Lizzie and Miss Emma?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You have known the Borden family all your life, have you?
A. I think I have always known Emma Borden, and have known Miss Lizzie since she has lived on the street, twenty years.
.............
479
A. She did. She rang my bell [Bridget], and said Miss Lizzie wanted me to come over.
Q. Did you go over then?
A. I was delayed a few seconds, and then I went over.

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65. "Re: Morse--A Real Character"
Posted by Susan on Apr-6th-03 at 4:28 PM
In response to Message #64.
Thanks, Kat. I was in a tizzy searching through my source docs, didn't get to the Prelim yet though. So, I still don't recall where I read that originally, but, its written as though Lizzie doesn't know who Phoebe Bowen is. Boy, talk about people taking things out of context! For however long after I had read that, I thought that they didn't know one another!

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66. "Re: Morse--A Real Character"
Posted by Kat on Apr-6th-03 at 4:36 PM
In response to Message #65.
I'm not naming any names, but you're not the only one who had that impression.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:29 pm

Kat @ Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:12 pm wrote:If you have the answer does the question really matter? The question is not sworn testimony anyway.

Well we have Pheobe Bowen's answer. Pheobe Bowen was not the one to either ask or answer the question I'm remembering, so it doesn't really answer my question.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:56 pm

Inquest
Dr. Bowen
119 (26)
Q. When you came down from up stairs, were more there?
A. Yes, my wife was there then. I told her to go right home.
Q. Had anybodyelse besides your wife come?
A. I could not swear to that.

--I sometimes think Dr. Bowen sent his wife home to make his dinner!

Did I put this in the right place?

diana · Post by **diana** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:14 pm

Is this what you're looking for, Melissa?

"I found Alice Russell sat down on a rocking chair, with Lizzie, and Lizzie had her head on Alice Russell’s shoulder. Mrs. Dr. Bowen came in in a few moments, and came and stood beside me. Miss Lizzie did not seem to know Mrs. Dr. Bowen, she asked who that woman is. Miss Russell said “that is Phebe Bowen.” (Inquest test. Adelaide Churchill.)

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:45 pm

EEK Diana.
That makes Mrs. Churchill look like she didn't really know what was going on.

I was going to suggest a search of those ladies around Lizzie at the time.

Well, pardon me for thinking the answer was important- obvioulsy the statement (in answer) is important! It may color our perception of Mrs. Churchill's understanding.

Thanks you guys!

john · Post by **john** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:03 pm

Most unusual.
I don't remember ever reading that Lizzie asked for Mrs. Bowen to come over. Did this information just come from Mrs. Bowen? Also it looks like her husband was the one that asked her to leave. To fix dinner? When much of the rest of the town was skipping dinner or skipping work just to stand in front of the Borden house?

diana · Post by **diana** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:29 pm

Bridget testified that Lizzie asked her to get Mrs. Bowen.
"I went over, Miss Lizzie sent me over, to tell Mrs. Bowen to come over."
(Preliminary hearing, p. 84)

john · Post by **john** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:37 pm

Wow - Diana knows her stuff!
I wonder why Lizzie wouldn't know Mrs. Bowen when she got over though? - Diana?

diana · Post by **diana** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:11 pm

Mrs. Bowen testified:
"I made a sound when they told me Mrs. Borden was dead. I sat in a chair back of Lizzie, where she was sitting. Lizzie asked who this was that made the sound. They told her Mrs. Bowen." (Preliminary hearing, 480)

Maybe this is the genesis of Mrs. Churchill's comment about Lizzie not recognizing the doctor's wife.

john · Post by **john** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:18 pm

Now, Diana, can you find who told Mrs. Bowen to leave? It could be more than Mr. Bowen.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:14 pm

diana @ Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:14 pm wrote:Is this what you're looking for, Melissa?

"I found Alice Russell sat down on a rocking chair, with Lizzie, and Lizzie had her head on Alice Russell’s shoulder. Mrs. Dr. Bowen came in in a few moments, and came and stood beside me. Miss Lizzie did not seem to know Mrs. Dr. Bowen, she asked who that woman is. Miss Russell said “that is Phebe Bowen.” (Inquest test. Adelaide Churchill.)

Yes, that is the quote I was looking for! Thank you. I knew I had read it somewhere in the testimony. I knew I would not have wondered about it so much if the question had simply been "Who made that noise." I was not online yesterday, so I did not read the thread until today. But thank you diana. It does not particularly make me think Mrs. Churchill did not know what was going on. I do not think it will make me look at Mrs. Churchill's testimony any differently. Of all the people who gave testimony, Mrs. Churchill's seems to be the most consistent, and she seems to have a good memory when it concerns what happened on that day. One statement in an otherwise pretty consistent testimony is not going to change that for me. Especially since there are a lot of statements made by other witnesses that do not necessarily match up to what was said by another witness, or even to their own prior testimony.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 9:49 pm

Well, for me, being that they were neighbors across the street- it sounds odd to me

She may just be a very literal person I suppose.

john · Post by **john** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 1:25 am

there seems to be more than "odd" there kat. especially coupled with what i guess is dr. bowen's instructions for mrs. bowen to leave, and perhaps lizzie asked her to leave - havn't heard for sure yet.

diana · Post by **diana** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:49 pm

Mrs. Bowen said she was so upset "they" told her "she was not fit to stay" ... so she went home. (Prelim., 480) This does not seem odd to me.

(BTW that must have been a very large rocking chair that Mrs. Churchill has both Alice Russell and Lizzie sitting in.)

I seem to be alone here -- but I'm still thinking Mrs. Bowen was standing behind Lizzie -- Mrs. B. made a sound of distress that caused Lizzie to react to her upset and ask who it was.

I think Mrs. Churchill just remembered that Mrs. Bowen had to be identified to Lizzie -- but not the context -- and ended up thinking Lizzie had not recognized the doctor's wife when in fact she had simply not recognized who made the distressed sound.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:55 pm

Second posting here is me saying what you're saying- you're not alone.

Also, Susan Posted: "Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:51 pm" a reminder of this same question from April, 2003! And again it was me saying what you are saying.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:01 pm

It does not particularly make me think Mrs. Churchill did not know what was going on. I do not think it will make me look at Mrs. Churchill's testimony any differently. Of all the people who gave testimony, Mrs. Churchill's seems to be the most consistent, and she seems to have a good memory when it concerns what happened on that day. One statement in an otherwise pretty consistent testimony is not going to change that for me. Especially since there are a lot of statements made by other witnesses that do not necessarily match up to what was said by another witness, or even to their own prior testimony.

--Allen

To this I can only repeat:

If you have the answer does the question really matter? The question is not sworn testimony anyway.

If the answer didn't influence what you think of Mrs. Churchill's ability to understand what was going on, then what's the difference? I'm glad to have the context, actually, myself, so thanks for at least asking.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:04 pm

Mrs. Bowen said she was so upset "they" told her "she was not fit to stay" ... so she went home. (Prelim., 480) This does not seem odd to me.

--Diana

What seemed odd to me is what Mrs. Churchill said about Lizzie not knowing Mrs. Dr. Bowen- not that Mrs. Dr. Bowen was asked to leave by Dr. Bowen.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:37 pm

Kat @ Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:01 pm wrote:
It does not particularly make me think Mrs. Churchill did not know what was going on. I do not think it will make me look at Mrs. Churchill's testimony any differently. Of all the people who gave testimony, Mrs. Churchill's seems to be the most consistent, and she seems to have a good memory when it concerns what happened on that day. One statement in an otherwise pretty consistent testimony is not going to change that for me. Especially since there are a lot of statements made by other witnesses that do not necessarily match up to what was said by another witness, or even to their own prior testimony.
--Allen

To this I can only repeat:
If you have the answer does the question really matter? The question is not sworn testimony anyway.
If the answer didn't influence what you think of Mrs. Churchill's ability to understand what was going on, then what's the difference? I'm glad to have the context, actually, myself, so thanks for at least asking.

Because I knew it was said, but I did not know who said it, or what context to put it in. And as for the quote"If you have the answer does the question really matter? The question is not sworn testimony anyway"....that was made before the statement made by Mrs. Churchill was found by diana so it doesn't really make sense to me to repeat it. What makes the difference is, how do we know that Mrs. Churchills statement is not more accurate that the statements made by everyone else, and not the other way around? Anything is after all possible, and I do not see anything wrong with asking questions about the case and the testimony, even if not everyone finds it relevant.

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:02 pm

I find your thoughts relevant, and I also agree that Mrs. Churchill testimony was believable and more reliable to me somehow. I also am beginning to think Lizzie knew who was sitting behind her, and was throwing in some drama perhaps when she asked who made that sound? I am sure she could have turned around and looked to see who it was, or was she playing the role of the victim to the hilt?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:33 pm

Questioning is always relevant. That it didn't make a difference to you when the answer was found is why I asked. I also tend to believe Mrs. Churchill. I think she may have been literal in her interpretation of events as she recounted them, and I would say thank you to her if I could for being on the spot and talking honestly about it.

I do also tend to view Lizzie as doing just what you say, Scott- playing to an audience. I see her swooning, lying back on her lounge with an arn thrown across her forehead yet peeking out to keep track of what's going on.

BTW: When I asked if the question really mattered, I meant the question of the questioner, which was in quotes, not your question, Allen.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 12:17 am

Kat @ Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:33 pm wrote:
I do also tend to view Lizzie as doing just what you say, Scott- playing to an audience. I see her swooning, lying back on her lounge with an arn thrown across her forehead yet peeking out to keep track of what's going on.

I agree with that image as well. I think she gave a performance that would've been worthy of Nance O'Neil.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:28 pm

It has been brought up on one of the threads not so long ago that it seemed odd that Dr. Bowen wanted Mrs. Churchill to come in and look at Andrew. He asked if she wanted to come in and see him. Why would he do that? But in reading other testimony I ran across the fact that he also asked Charles Sawyer if he wanted to come in and see Andrew. Why does Dr. Bowen seem to be wanting to "show off" the body?

Charles Sawyer inquest testimony page 137-8:

Q. You did not go in to see him?
A.No sir, not then. Finally I went in, I says "is he dead"? "Yes" they says, "he is dead."

Q.Who said that?
A.Mrs. Churchill says "O, yes he is dead." Dr. Bowen stood there, and asked me if I would like to see him. I dont know as he opened the door, he turned and pointed in, and I saw a sheet thrown over a body, some little signs of blood. Dr. Bowen ask me if I would like to see it. I did not particularly want to see it, but at the same time I went in and looked at it.

Why does he seem to show such a fascination with showing Andrew's body to everyone? I do not remember that he asked if anyone wanted to go up and see Abby? It seems a big morbid to me. It sort of gives me the idea of old time carnival barkers asking you to "step right up and take a look."

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 5:51 pm

I totally agree with you Allen, I thought it was strange when he asked Mrs. Churchill to go look at the body, but I never knew he asked Sawyer to do the same? Was he playing Funeral Director? This reminds me of when one of my best friends Grandmother died, and I went to the viewing of the body before the Funeral. Her Mother asked me if I wanted to go say goodbye to Nanny, I really didn't want to go look but I did out of respect for the family, but My God, asking people to come view a hacked up man, bloodied and disfigured? On the other hand, My Great- Grandparents had photographs of their stillborn son in their photo album. Apparently, it was normal to take pictures of the deceased back then, it was a picture of them holding their dead infant son, very creepy. Anyway, Dr. Bowen's behavior here is really strange to me.

john · Post by **john** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 7:55 pm

You're never alone, Diana, as long as I'm here. I brought up the Mrs. Bowen question and it isn't resolved. If you consider Dr. Bowen a part of a "big picture," then you have to wonder. And all the rest are doing is speculation, yet i am repramanded for that while they are ennamurated on for something I started.
I have a bigger question for you Diana, and I think you're pretty cool to do it: why would Abby be killed in the guest room if Uncle John could be expected at any time?

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 8:55 pm

I have always wondered if Dr. Bowen wasn't in some state of shock that day, from his description of Andrew, it sounds like it unsettled him. I can't really think of any other reason why he would ask people to come in and look at Andrew.

Inquest, page 117:

Q. You said "where is he", what answer did she give?
A. In the sitting room. She beckoned along through the dining room. I went through the dining room to the door between the dining room and the sitting room, that was directly at the head of the sofa. As soon as I got at the door, I could see the whole room, and saw him. Of course I was prepared for something awful, as I did not hear him, and there was no sound. He lay there still, unrecognizable, his face was cut in such a manner I never should have known who it was. I stepped in a second, looked around the room to see if there was any disturbance. It struck me like a flash to see if there was anything left in the room. Then I went right back again, and told them that their father was dead. I took hold of his pulse, and found he was dead, satisfied myself. I did not know that he was when I saw him. I took hold of his pulse, and found he was pulseless. Then I went back and informed them that he was dead.

And from the Preliminary Vol 5, page 411:

Q. Dr. Bowen, it was an awful sight, was it not?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. It was a ghastly sight, was it not?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. It effected you to tears, did it not, Doctor?
A. No Sir.
Q. When you came out from that room into the other room, were there not tears streaming down your cheeks?
A. I should not think so.
Q. Would you say they were not, if anybodyelse said so?
A. I should want more than one to say it, or two or three.
Q. The eye ball was hanging out itself?
A. It was cut in two, in halves.
Q. And lay on one cheek or the other?
A. No it was not lying on the cheek. It was cut in two, or cut in halves, and remained almost in the natural position.
Q. You do not remember that you came out of that room with the tears streaming down your face?
A. No Sir.
Q. You think you did not?
A. I think I did not; I am sure I did not.

Where did this idea come about that Dr. Bowen was crying after he viewed Andrew for the first time? Weird.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:45 am

It came from a letter which Nellie McHenry sent to Hilliard, claiming she had an interview with Bridget. Ostensively, it came from a statement supposedly given to her by Bridget.
Page 33+ in The Knowlton Papers:

..."Bridget went and came back with Mrs. Churchill together they went over the house and upstairs in Morse's room they found her Mrs. Borden dead Bridget said she was the
first one to find poor Mrs. Borden dead and she was so awfully frightened she put her arms around Mrs. Churchill and cried. Miss Lizzie was quite cool not nervous Dr. Bowen came running out from the old gentlemen all excited with the tears coming down his cheeks saying Oh he is murdered murdered_________
....
...Provo Aug. 25/92

(Note: 'Statement of Bridget Sullivan to Nellie S. McHenry' handwritten in ink on reverse side of document.)"

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:26 am

Thanks, Kat, another new one to me. Well, at least it explains where the idea came from about Dr. Bowen crying. Amazing that they would put so much stock in that letter when they already had Inquest testimony from the principal players.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:49 am

Well, it supposedly came from Bridget and do we know if they had Bridget's testimony from the inquest?
It may be in her testimony at the inquest, or they may really believe Nellie because apparently Hilliard hired McHenry (and so his wife, Nellie) to help in the investigation.
After the Trickey scandal it was hard to sort out who did hire him.

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:53 am

and funny how that would be two cases of "crying incidence" -- both attributed to bridget. at least one later denied by bridget.

the claim was that bridget did say lizzie was crying at inquest. as i recall, it was read.

anyway, i have no idea why she'd have everybody crying and later on dry them up.

john · Post by **john** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:12 pm

If Andrew had his eyeball hanging out does that mean he had his eye open when he was violated thereabouts?

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 1:18 pm

***If Andrew had his eyeball hanging out does that mean he had his eye open when he was violated thereabouts?***

i would think the depth of the cut has obliterated the eyelid whether it was open or closed. also, i think the "visual effect" is that the eyeball has been sliced in half while more or less in place -- and part of a longer diagonal wound.

anyway, i would go with bowen's description. isn't "his eyeball hanging out" from knowlton in questioning lizzie? of course, he never saw it himself -- he's trying to rattle lizzie in his choice of words, i think.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 7:47 pm

Allen @ Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:28 pm wrote:

Why does he seem to show such a fascination with showing Andrew's body to everyone? I do not remember that he asked if anyone wanted to go up and see Abby? It seems a big morbid to me. It sort of gives me the idea of old time carnival barkers asking you to "step right up and take a look."

It seems I was incorrect in the fact that he didn't seem to invite anyone to see Abby's body. So far I found him inviting Mr. Pettee, a former tenant of 92 Second Street who had occupied the second floor aparment before the Borden's lived there. Mr. Pettee seems to have gotten there after both bodies had been found. Sorry if I seem to be stuck on this point. But I just find it so morbid. Even for me, and I have been told I have fascinations that run a bit on the morbid side myself.

Trial testimony George A. Pettee page 645-6:

Q. Had a crowd collected at the time?
A.No, sir.

Q.Outside or in the yard?
A. No, sir. There was nobody outside at all.

Q.Now, then, what did you do?
A.Well, I passed right into the room where Mr. Borden was. Dr. Bowen was in the act of covering him with a sheet when I went in. When he saw me approaching he took the sheet away and gave me an opportunity to look at him. After I had looked at him what time I thought was necessary, I stood back and he covered him up.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
page 646:

Q.Where did you go then?
A. Then I inquired of Dr. Bowen if Mrs. Borden was dead too, and he said she was. He invited me to go up stairs with him and look at her, and I did so. I found Mrs. Borden lying in the northeast corner of the room: I should think that she lay on her face; that her head was within perhaps 18 inches of the wall; that she was nearly in the centre of the space between the bed and the dresser. It was quite dark in there, so much so that I could not see very well, and I passed in to her head and I got down on my knees and put my hand on her head in order that I might see and feel what the condition of her head was in. As soon as my hand touched her head I noticed that her hair was dry, that it was matted, that it seemed to be very rough on the palm of my hand, and there was no moisture adhered to my hand when I took it away.

I had originally been trying to find out if there had been any more testimony about the blanket in the closet of Emma's room, and I just keep running across more testimony of the "Step right up and have a look" at the Bordens type.