Axe the big question

[theebmonique]

Exactly Kat...what DID she need to make up the note thing anyway...when she could have just said "Abby went out...to the store...to visit"...whatever...but WHY add THE NOTE ???


Tracy...

[Haulover]

Why lizzie telling of a note in the first place?

of course, i don't know.

but for the reasons pointed out here -- we must consider the possibility that lizzie at least THOUGHT at some point there was indeed a note. this would be less baffling (although it raises more questions) if lizzie had indeed been told by someone that abby had left on a sick note. it would also explain why lizzie's first inclination, later, in being questioned by knowlton -- is to avoid mention of the note. (this is a key feature in her inquest -- knowlton questions her in such a way as to give her a chance to volunteer the note story..finally he asks her outright.)

i'm suggesting that the note was a lie from the start but did not originate with lizzie.

[Susan]

I guess thats the bottom line here, who else would profit from lying about a note other than Lizzie and who else was there to lie about it? That leaves Bridget, but, what could she gain by lying to Lizzie and saying that Mrs. Borden had a sick note? I don't think Lizzie would ordinarily care, one way or the other, where Abby was. Lizzie already has Abby going out for meat in her Inquest testimony, why the note to go out? Maybe it had something to do with the speed that Abby normally did her food shopping? There and back in a few minutes time. That would further the need for another reason to keep Abby out of the house longer i.e. that her disappearance wouldn't go noticed by Andrew and perhaps, Bridget. Unless the whole shopping excursion was a lie too, then there would be a need for a reason that Abby would be missing from the house.

[Allen]

If she claimed Abby went out to the market, or to do some household errand, witnesses at these places would have been questioned. If she claimed she received some mysterious "note" calling her out, what witnesses are there to be questioned? Nobody knew who the note came from. If I was the killer I would figure the fewer the people to be questioned about the happenings on that day the better.

[john]

Love your thinking Kat.
Either there was a note or there wasn't and it said something or it said something else.
Now I know this sounds confusing, but it's definition.
Now I just happened on this site again - been doing other stuff - and not really thinking about it, but I'll get back with you shortly.
One interesting item, though, would there having a note been of benefit to anyone? Think of all possible things.

[Kat]

The period of time supposedly covered by the note, then, if it was invented to secure a reason why Abby was gone so long, would need to encompass, I suppose, from abt. 9:30 til 15 minutes after Andrew came home, say 11.
So the note could be invented to cover a 90 minute period, if anyone asked as early as 9:30 where Abby was, right?

OK, it really was only used as a suggestion as to Abby's whereabouts around 10:45 to Andrew which Bridget overheard and only needed or used as an excuse till what, 11:20? So by the time a note story might be needed the need was no longer there. Within 15 minutes, the husband of Abby was dead and not many else would know Abby's schedule.

So even if it was thought of earlier as a possible crutch for a story- it wasn't used until so late that it was useless.

[theebmonique]

I am sure this has already been said...but could the note have been a case of Lizzie panicking...not thinking how much sense the note idea did not make ?


Tracy...

[Kat]

It does tend to sound as if it was made up on the spot, but surely with Morse's immenent arrival home, Abby's wherabouts would only be wondered about very late in the morning, sometime after Andrew arrived. Still, once Andrew arrives, he has to be killed very soon, as Morse is due, so why lie about a note to Andrew to gain 15 minutes- at the time, on the spot, when she did?

It's like saying that anyone can be distracted for 15 minutes without resorting to inventing such a significant piece of possible evidence.

[Allen]

The period of time supposedly covered by the note, then, if it was invented to secure a reason why Abby was gone so long, would need to encompass, I suppose, from abt. 9:30 til 15 minutes after Andrew came home, say 11.
So the note could be invented to cover a 90 minute period, if anyone asked as early as 9:30 where Abby was, right?

OK, it really was only used as a suggestion as to Abby's whereabouts around 10:45 to Andrew which Bridget overheard and only needed or used as an excuse till what, 11:20? So by the time a note story might be needed the need was no longer there. Within 15 minutes, the husband of Abby was dead and not many else would know Abby's schedule.

So even if it was thought of earlier as a possible crutch for a story- it wasn't used until so late that it was useless.

If she had not used the idea that Abby had gone out, she would've been even more closely questioned about Abby's movements on that day. As we see from her statements she was not a good liar. She would've had to invent a whole mornings worth of lies dealing with Abby's movements and/ or conversations, could she have pulled it off? Even if the police did not know Abby's schedule, they make it one of their first priorities to find out. The movements of everyone were closely scrutinized for that day. If Lizzie had not said Abby had gone out, then they would've wanted to know what Abby did around the house that morning. I can't see Lizzie wanting that kind of added pressure on top of what she already had.

[Kat]

Sorry, I was editing the last line while you posted.
It speaks either way, once again. The argument you put forth can go both ways. Added pressure, exactly- why call attention to Abby's state of dress?
Anyway, Lizzie was closely questioned on Abby's morning, over and over and over until she finally spoke out about the note. I think by then she realized that bridget had heard and spoke about it in her inquest testimony, so Lizzie figured she should come clean.
It is just this eaxct position she put herself in which makes me believe there was never a note.

[john]

Good thinking Theebomonique - I'll try and get back on this stuff.
A famous detective once said, "every killer leaves his mark in some way."

[john]

You guys are so hot!

[Allen]

Anyway, Lizzie was closely questioned on Abby's morning, over and over and over until she finally spoke out about the note. I think by then she realized that bridget had heard and spoke about it in her inquest testimony, so Lizzie figured she should come clean.
It is just this eaxct position she put herself in which makes me believe there was never a note.

That sort of exactly goes along with what I wast thinking."

Anyway, Lizzie was closely questioned on Abby's morning, over and over and over until she finally spoke out about the note. "

That sort of puts the imagine in my mind of her being questioned about it and finally saying she don't know what Abby did because she didn't think Abby was there. Get off my back already and stop asking I didn't think she was there and I'm sticking to that story from here on out. I do not believe there ever was a note. But I do think you're right Kat. I think it was a panic lie made up on the spot. And about that 15 minutes, how did Lizzie know she had 15 minutes? How did Lizzie know how much time she had at all? We do now. But did she then?

[john]

What about Bridget. Now Abby's dead so a note means nothing to her. Andrew is soon to be same. Bridget is overhearing.
Does that Abby is gone by a note mean something to her?

[Allen]

What about Bridget. Now Abby's dead so a note means nothing to her. Andrew is soon to be same. Bridget is overhearing.
Does that Abby is gone by a note mean something to her?

I'm sorry, may just be me I'm pretty tired right now, but I didn't quite understand your meaning.

[Kat]

I think Morse due back for dinner puts the need for a note out of bounds.
Maybe we can extend the time we think she thinks she needs, but surely only up until Morse is to come back?
So that would be from 10:40 to 11:40. That time span could still be Abby's time out shopping. The only others who could confirm Abby's schedule are Emma and Bridget.

(I was going to try to intrepret john to you but then I remembered I asked that not be done for me- fairs fair- so john may decipher himself...)

[Allen]

I think Morse due back for dinner puts the need for a note out of bounds.
Maybe we can extend the time we think she thinks she needs, but surely only up until Morse is to come back?
So that would be from 10:40 to 11:40. That time span could still be Abby's time out shopping. The only others who could confirm Abby's schedule are Emma and Bridget.

(I was going to try to intrepret john to you but then I remembered I asked that not be done for me- fairs fair- so john may decipher himself...)

Well, that’s an hour. That's a long time to try and distract someone if you are unsure when you're opportunity may arise. I would think if she could've told Andrew that Abby went out shopping she would have. For some reason that either wasn't feasible, or wasn't believable. That’s my take on it. I've stated why I think she used a note instead of saying she went out marketing, but there is also another part to that idea which I want to think about a little bit more and work out for myself before I post it. If Abby "went out", there would be witnesses to be questioned. Lizzie did know Bridget was in the house at that point, so she probably also knew she possibly could be overheard. Maybe Abby did not do as much of the marketing as she is thought to also. If we had a way to know some of these things for sure it would be so helpful .

[Allen]

Ok there is one other issue that bothers me about the whole "note" business. Bridget said that Lizzie asked her after Andrew got home if she was going out that afternoon. She said "Maggie, are you going out this afternoon?” Bridget replied she didn't know if she was or not. Lizzie then said “If you go out, be sure and lock the door, for Mrs. Borden has gone out on a sick call, and I might go out, too." Now if Lizzie was the killer, she knew that Abby was dead. She probably already knew that Andrew was going to die also at the first good opportunity she was given. Why ask Bridget whether or not she was going out, and then mention the note to her? I think it could be because she was wondering if Bridget was going to go out of the house and give her some "privacy" to commit the second act. She asked Bridget what she was planning to do, and then mentioned the note so that if Bridget was indeed planning to go out, she wouldn't go and try to let Mrs. Borden know she was leaving, or ask her if there was anything she needed done before she left. Or maybe to ask if there were any errands she needed run while Bridget was out and about. Lizzie told all and sundry about the note that day, but then adds the fact that she thought Abby had come in after both murders were committed. When it was convenient, Abby had "come in" so that her body might be discovered.

[Kat]

This sounds like Lizzie is capitalizing on the note business by telling Bridget, essentially, that she can go lie down or go out to Sargents because the mistress of the house is out and won't be watching Bridget's movements in the near future.

No matter whether the note is real or not, or for what reason it was ultimately used, it was not trotted out as an excuse until Andrew came home at 10:40, dinner is at noon, Morse is due whenever -soon- (unless he knew how long to stay away, which is something I always consider)- meaning, Andrew dying was known to have to be accomplished by 11:45. So the parameters of needing a note as an excuse for Abby to not be present still only covers that immediate timeframe. The fact that Bridget overheard might have been to Lizzie's immediate advantage, she thought, later, when she said that to Bridget.

[Haulover]

***OK, it really was only used as a suggestion as to Abby's whereabouts around 10:45 to Andrew which Bridget overheard and only needed or used as an excuse till what, 11:20? So by the time a note story might be needed the need was no longer there. Within 15 minutes, the husband of Abby was dead and not many else would know Abby's schedule.

So even if it was thought of earlier as a possible crutch for a story- it wasn't used until so late that it was useless.***

____________

isn't this whole mess solved if it was lizzie who was screwed over by the note story? that the note story was invented to explain to lizzie the whereabouts of mrs. B? then lizzie's odd words to bridget about going out later, etc. is an ordinary concern and understandable? THEN when lizzie hears a distressing, scraping groan and finds andrew -- she can then put it together and knows who killer must be. according to this theory, lizzie knew what had transpired once it had happened. her resistance to telling about the note later would be that it connected her to the killer, who was the one who created the note story in the first place.

1st big question for this theory, though, is where was lizzie when abby was killed?

[Kat]

I see what you mean- I understand what you-all are saying, too.

How about Andrew, tho? Lizzie tells Bridget she should lock up if she leaves because Mrs. Borden is out and she herself might be going out- but where does Andrew fit in this equation? No mention as to what Andrew will be doing...

[Allen]

I see what you mean- I understand what you-all are saying, too.

How about Andrew, tho? Lizzie tells Bridget she should lock up if she leaves because Mrs. Borden is out and she herself might be going out- but where does Andrew fit in this equation? No mention as to what Andrew will be doing...

Andrew isn't already dead.

[Susan]

I have always wondered about that, Lizzie's comment to Bridget and nothing noted about Andrew. I've read that Andrew was considered semi-retired and that he did conduct business out of the house. But, did Andrew normally leave the house after lunch for more business rounds? And that it was considered pretty much a given that he would be gone the rest of the afternoon so that Lizzie need not mention him? Or was it simply something like, "The grouch is home, don't let him find any doors unlocked if you go out, you know how he is!"

[Kat]

Yes, I don't think we know what the rest of Andrew's day might be after his dinner on any given day.
But to not include a live Andrew into the locking-up scenario speaks loudly, I think.
Lizzie has accounted for eveyone but him.
oops- and eveyone but Morse!