Took The Fall?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon May 16, 2005 3:05 am

I was watching a cold case file (I think), and it started as a story of a child disappearing from her home in the night while the parents slept. They touted it as *Before JonBenet- Before Sabrina Eisenberg* you know, Before The First Really Publicized Story of a child taken in the night, there was this story.
I don't recall her name, but the father was a stepfather and he was a suspect and so was the mother of the child.
And profilers look first at the parents.
The grandmother lived with them. I didn't think the stepfather did anything, I thought they were covering for the grandmother. She seemed odd to me.

So I wondered.
I thought of Lizzie proceeding to trial, willing to wait in jail for that, knowing she was innocent. And I'm thinking, what if she knows who did this but is protecting them. Who in her life would she be willing to protect? She has an ace in the hole in that if she is convicted, she can trot out this person's name if she really has to.
Maybe it is someone old, with some standing in the community. Lizzie would probably be related to this person.

Who would this be?
She's not going to jail for Morse, I don't think.
What do you think?
Is this possible?

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Mon May 16, 2005 11:14 am

Actually a better question (as it relates to the Borden case) might be "Whom might Lizzie have been willing to die for if it came to that?"

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Mon May 16, 2005 12:01 pm

From Kat's description, it would seem to point to Emma (in my opinion). I just don't think Lizzie would have been willing to die for anyone...take the fall if not convicted yes...but not to die for something she did NOT do.

Tracy...

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Mon May 16, 2005 3:10 pm

Agree with theebmonique Emma is the only person in Lizzie's life who she would protect because of how Emma protected her all those years

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Mon May 16, 2005 6:46 pm

I am not so sure that Emma really 'protected' Lizzie as much as she helped 'create' our favorite enigma by projecting her own hatred of Abby into Lizzie's psyche. Lizzie was so young when Sarah died and when Andrew married Abby, that if she could have grown up knowing Abby 'differently'...seeing her through her own eyes, rather than through the filter of what Emma told her...THE day may have gone MUCH differently on August 4th, 1892.

Tracy,,,

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Mon May 16, 2005 9:18 pm

Maybe but Emma (according to most references) was not that kind of person.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue May 17, 2005 1:31 am

No I never suggested Lizzie would die for anyone. That's the point. She has enough strength of character to wait it out, suffer like a martyr, take the bad-mouthing (which I believe they kept the newspapers from her so she might not know the extent of disdain for her), wait for trial, and then if convicted or under advice from counsel as the end of the trial drew near, give up the real person's name.
This would be if she had no knowledge of what happened until after the event. Otherwise she's still into it as accessory.

So my question is who would she protect- who would she think might not survive in jail, loss of privacy, loss of standing in the community, who would essentially shrivel up from such exposure?
I think the girls have a good answer in "Emma."
I was thinking maybe someone like Lurana Harrington. Maybe someone these girls are protecting for a multitde of reasons?

It's also someone she would be able to forgive, you see. And someone she would not give up to the authorities later and why she never actively persued another killer. She had the money to try to solve the case, but she didn't.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue May 17, 2005 1:43 am

If she never knew Abby was killed, and was outside and saw the killer of Andrew leaving, and didn't realize what had happened until she saw his body- she instantly has to make a choice. I think (if she didn't do it) she saw who did and protected them later.
She had to have seen the killer. So it has to be someone dear to her or who has some emotional hold over her, right?

It's almost *romantic* to be innocent and suffer like that and take morphine and have the courage she's read about- all very melodramatic- plus she knows she's innocent.
Is it that much of a gamble? Would Robinson know if he was winning or losing and could give her advance warning? (not that he knew what she knew, but he might).
She'd also probably know they weren't ever going to kill again- that there was no more danger...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue May 17, 2005 1:49 am

If Lizzie didn't do it, it might very well have happened this way and so all the poor members here who believe Lizzie is innocent and so don't get to give their opinion so much can pour their belief into such a scenerio and develope it..

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Tue May 17, 2005 7:12 am

I feel that I have always been able to express my belief that Lizzie is innocent. Sometimes I do like to toy with the idea that she may have had a bigger hand in it than I think, but I always come back to the "innocent" idea.

This does sound like a very believable theory for how things could have happened. I like this much better than the conspiracy thoughts that have been running through my head. This seems to be a better fit to what I think Lizzie's personality was like. I am still struggling though, with the idea about what Lizzie knew about the events of the day, prior to them happening. I think she almost had to know SOMETHING. Maybe she just didn't know that someone would either actually go through with it...or that August 4th was THE day.

Tracy...

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Tue May 17, 2005 8:55 am

I used to think she may be innocent until I realized that I just wanted her to be....

I am now moving to a point where I believe in her guilt.... I am still (and hopefully always will be) at a point where I do not know what to think about accessories. (

that sounds funny coming from me.... Of course I know what to think about accessories)

At this moment, 17 May, 2005 at 8.54am, I think Lizzie A. Borden killed her stepmother and father to get at their money. I think she did it by herself and was incredibly lucky.

Ask me what I think at 10am! It will change!

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Tue May 17, 2005 3:16 pm

I believe she is innocent but I will go into great detail about my belief

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Tue May 17, 2005 4:14 pm

I believe she is innocent but I will go into great detail about my belief

So...when are you going to go into it ? I'm dying to know if you think.......like some of the rest of us do. You asked for our theories...tell us yours.

Tracy...

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Tue May 17, 2005 6:20 pm

Okay girl

Here it goes

I believe that Lizzie is innocent.
I blame Emma for it and I think she had the right to kill them even if they have done nothing to the to her and her sister and there were a few accounts of from books and people that Abby was a ***** to them in return so I think It's to **** bad for them.

And I think that Emma tried to get the suspicion off of Lizzie and it wasn't good enough so there.

No offense to any of you but my brother (mr. no it all) has just pissed me off

Saying i'm an idiot for liking and defending her

well ya no what

He sucks

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Tue May 17, 2005 6:45 pm

Interesting. I think it's too bad, in my opinion, that you don't seem to have more respect for life. I feel that unless you are actively defending your own life or the life of a loved one...from impending/life threatening doom, that's it's never OK to kill another human being.

By the "*****" you mean words determined to be unacceptable here in the forum...correct ?

Brothers are supposed to bother sisters at your age. It's their job. Take this as a teaching opportunity to teach him about Lizzie and why you think the way you do. Eventually you will find you need your brother.

Tracy...

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue May 17, 2005 7:41 pm

Audrey @ Tue May 17, 2005 8:55 am wrote:I used to think she may be innocent until I realized that I just wanted her to be....

I am now moving to a point where I believe in her guilt.... I am still (and hopefully always will be) at a point where I do not know what to think about accessories. ( that sounds funny coming from me.... Of course I know what to think about accessories)

At this moment, 17 May, 2005 at 8.54am, I think Lizzie A. Borden killed her stepmother and father to get at their money. I think she did it by herself and was incredibly lucky.

Ask me what I think at 10am! It will change!

I agree with Audrey. I think something pushed Lizzie over the edge that day. Something happened that finally brought all that she had endured in that house to a head, and she snapped. I don't think she ever killed again, because she didn't HAVE to. She was never in that kind of situation again, and she already had the money. Why would she have to? I don't think she killed them because she enjoyed killing, that is the only reason I can think of that someone would kill repeatedly.

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Tue May 17, 2005 7:47 pm

Sorry but I don't need him and he is the one wishing for my death and I wish for his

and the *** are not really bad words they are just there for space since I really can't say I want to

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Tue May 17, 2005 7:50 pm

theebmonique @ Tue May 17, 2005 6:45 pm wrote:Interesting. I think it's too bad, in my opinion, that you don't seem to have more respect for life. I feel that unless you are actively defending your own life or the life of a loved one...from impending/life threatening doom, that's it's never OK to kill another human being.

By the "*****" you mean words determined to be unacceptable here in the forum...correct ?

Brothers are supposed to bother sisters at your age. It's their job. Take this as a teaching opportunity to teach him about Lizzie and why you think the way you do. Eventually you will find you need your brother.

Tracy...

I can't tell him about her he thinks she is guilty and there is no talking to him

he's just like his father

Wordweaver · Post by **Wordweaver** » Tue May 17, 2005 8:21 pm

Kat @ Mon May 16, 2005 10:43 pm wrote:If she never knew Abby was killed, and was outside and saw the killer of Andrew leaving, and didn't realize what had happened until she saw his body- she instantly has to make a choice. I think (if she didn't do it) she saw who did and protected them later.
She had to have seen the killer. So it has to be someone dear to her or who has some emotional hold over her, right?

It's almost *romantic* to be innocent and suffer like that and take morphine and have the courage she's read about- all very melodramatic- plus she knows she's innocent.

This makes excellent sense. I do believe she either wielded the hatchet or knew who did. In fact, I suspect everyone in that house knew who committed the murders. The tight-lipped New Englanders kept the secret.

This scenario would also account for Lizzie's confused and contradictory stories. She was trying to cover up and hadn't thought it all through. She certainly did not have a clear alibi ready--or if she had prepared one (the sale of dress goods?), it failed her.

One of the endless fascinations of the case is the seesaw of evidence between coldblooded premeditation and crime of passion.

Lynn

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Tue May 17, 2005 8:26 pm

Liz...you talk to many people on this forum who not only think Lizzie is guilty, but who also don't agree with you on other things...and you won't even try with your brother ?

You are selling yourself short if you don't at least make an honest attempt with the boy. Believe me, one of these days you will move into an apartment...or have a flooded basement...you WILL need your brother.

Your perspective on death as an answer is worrisome. Death is not a cure-all.

Tracy...

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Tue May 17, 2005 9:12 pm

Liz... Do you have both of your parents in the home? Are they active and interested in you and your life?

I ask, not to offend-- But to gain information. In some instances it does seem that you have a slightly skewed idea of what a family unit is and how the members of a family interact with one another. Does your mother/father monitor your Internet use and see what you post and how you present yourself?

I have 6 children, 2 of them teenagers. My Alax is 16. He thinks he is "plenty old enough" to do as he wishes and not have to be accountable to his father or me for all of his actions-- and in some ways he is correct. In many, however, he is incorrect. If I thought for a minute he was on the Internet posting that Emma Borden (or anyone else for that matter) had a "right" to kill her parents because he read somewhere that one, or both of them had be a "B" to her... I would pull the plug on the Internet toute de suite and cart him off to the nearest reputable counselor.

If you need any help, advice or just plain mothering... PM me here on the forum.

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Tue May 17, 2005 9:39 pm

theebmonique I've tried I really havebut it just ends up in a fight

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Tue May 17, 2005 9:45 pm

If you need any help, advice or just plain mothering... PM me here on the forum.

Same here Liz. Only I would do "Aunting". As Auds suggests, PMing would be a better venue for these discussions...less public.

Tracy...

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Tue May 17, 2005 9:48 pm

Audrey,
your answers,

No I live with my mother and brother, my parents (mainly my mom) are trying to get divorced.
My mom is always at work 8:00a.m.-7:00:a.m. almost dailyand my brother is too worried about graduation next Tuesday and leaving for the Marines this July. So another words I have no family.

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Tue May 17, 2005 9:50 pm

That's wonder and thank you both girls but I don't really think have much to say

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Tue May 17, 2005 9:54 pm

[you WILL need your brother.

will not he plans to leave us

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Tue May 17, 2005 10:26 pm

Check your PM's Liz.

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed May 18, 2005 3:17 am

As I was saying so eloquently, it would be someone Lizzie could forgive. And still *trust* later not to kill again.
So it's someone she and Emma can keep watch over or someone she believes in.
Does a boyfriend fit in here?

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Wed May 18, 2005 7:03 am

Sorry for going off-topic Kat.

OK, getting back to what we should be focused on here, Kat's idea of Lizzie protecting someone who she knew was guilty of the crime. At first, I thought of Emma because of the suggestion that it may be someone Lizzie was related to, but the idea that it could be a 'boyfriend' (David Anthony ?) works too. Very intriguing Kat !

Tracy...

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed May 18, 2005 2:09 pm

I have a problem with that. There is no evidence Lizzie had a boyfriend. There was no evidence not only then, but no evidence of it EVER. All stories of her having any sort of relations with a man seem to be based only in rumor and innuendo. If she knew someone else did it, and she got convicted of the crime, she would need a lot more than a name to "trot out" to get her off the hook. She would need evidence, believable, provable evidence that connected the person with the crime and put them in the house that day. Any convicted murderer can say I didn't do it he/she really did it. The prisons are full of "innocent people who didn't do it." I think Lizzie did it.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Wed May 18, 2005 8:55 pm

If she kept the name of the murderer of her beloved(?) papa and hated(?) step mother secret to protect him/her-- what was in it for her?

The romantic aspect is a possibility-- I can see that in Lizzie...

Lizzie was a nice person before and after the killings.. I think she was just so PO'd and felt so helpless that she snapped. I don't think she was sinister enough to be part of a plot..

The whole plot of any kind theory is hard for me to accept since she planned so poorly for her own alibi and didn't have her story straight.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed May 18, 2005 9:10 pm

Well, there was always a question of a boyfriend, even from October, 1892.
Then add Morse as her boyfriend, which was a rumor as the skeleton in the Borden closet.
Also Bowen, because she stayed home from the farm one summer and was escorted to church by the good doctor.
There was rumor in the papers including a possble engagement announcement, later, with Mr. Gardiner, her cousin.
Then Ruby Cameron comes along and we have studied that in depth- and have written articles on it.
Do you know those details, Allen?
There was always a shadowy possible boyfriend in the background through the ages.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed May 18, 2005 10:36 pm

Sorry, Allen I got called away. I sounded abrupt.
What I meant when I asked what you may know as details to the David Anthony story, is that there is a Hatchet issue with a lot of the information in there and it's the October/Novenber, 2004. I think anyone would find that story pretty interesting.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed May 18, 2005 11:12 pm

But thats just my point, they were all rumors. There isnt any hard evidence. If Lizzie had a boyfriend, why are there only rumors and speculation about it? Why didn't anyone know?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed May 18, 2005 11:29 pm

Hard Evidence!? Ha ha.. I like puns

Have you read that David Anthony story, tho?
Some people think it's possible.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed May 18, 2005 11:36 pm

I forgot Joseph Tetrault. Lizzie had quite a few potential boyfriends to choose from I think.
Maybe they did not kiss and tell?

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Thu May 19, 2005 3:16 pm

Being cordial here I don't quite believe that what makes you?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu May 19, 2005 4:29 pm

I don't understand your sentence, Liz.

Oh and there is Curtis Piece (R-14)

So named possible male admirers are Piece, Bowen, Morse, Anthony, Gardner and Tetrault.
Now we have some names, I'm thinking we can't rule out everything just like that.

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Thu May 19, 2005 5:16 pm

Kat @ Thu May 19, 2005 4:29 pm wrote:I don't understand your sentence, Liz.

Oh and there is Curtis Piece (R-14)

So named possible male admirers are Piece, Bowen, Morse, Anthony, Gardner and Tetrault.
Now we have some names, I'm thinking we can't rule out everything just like that.

I don't understand yours

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu May 19, 2005 7:21 pm

"Being cordial here I don't quite believe that what makes you?"--Liz

This is the sentence I don't understand.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu May 19, 2005 8:21 pm

"R-14" refers to the Rebello book Lizzie Borden Past & Present, and the page where Curtis Piece appears is #14.
He was a young man Lizzie knew in years past and who wished to re-acquaint himself with her once she was in jail, and so he wrote a letter asking this.
Lizzie's lawyer Jennings, wrote him to not bother her.