What did Bridget fear?

[DWilly]

Today I was flipping through good old Rebello and came across a few things in Bridget's Will that jumped out at me. On page 68, Rebello shows Bridget leaving "1. $600.00 for burial expenses and $100.00,... for the purpose of having Masses said for the repose of my soul."

A hundred bucks for Masses? How many did she want? Seems like a hundred bucks back in 1948, is going to buy you quite a few. I wonder if there was something Bridget feared and she felt she needed a lot of Masses said for her? We have discussed before how Bridget quickly fled the house right after the murderers. I wonder if she still feared something years later?

The second thing that jumped out at me was that she "intentionally omitted" some of her relatives in her Will. Why? Again my mind began to wonder if it's possible that some of Bridget's relatives were upset with her over the Borden case? If she did make a trip back to Ireland did she reveal something to them? Maybe some of them had reason to suspect Bridget had some money tucked away and they wanted it?

[theebmonique]

It used to be that Masses for the Repose of the Soul were said for a year after the parishoner died. SO...approx. $2 a week for Bridget's Masses ? I am thinking it's not all that bad, especially since the money is basically a donation to help the parish. If Bridget was a fairly devout Catholic during her final years, she may have felt it a moral obligation to offer the money to the church.

Doing it because of guilt, is not out of the question however.


Tracy...

[Audrey]

When my mother died recently we did not even consider not gifting the church for masses for the repose of her soul....

It is simply something Catholics do.

And it is one of those things you are as generous as you can afford to be with.

According to the Inflation Calculator at http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

That amount in 2005 dollars is slightly less than $850.

That is not overly generous at all.

[Kat]

That's an interesting question, and interesting answers!
I wouldn't think of it, personally, but have had Masses gifted to loved one who have passed away.
I had no idea of what it cost, tho. The cards didn't say.

I suppose since Bridget had no children, that could be her way of getting her charitable-donation money's-worth.
Reasonable answer, I'd say. Thanks.

(Sounds like a lot of money to me, tho...)

[Kat]

Which book has the whole Minnie Green story in it?
I always wished a member would double-check that story about the Library in Montana.

[mbhenty]

I grew up in a Catholic family, attended a Catholic school. I seen most of it, good and bad. Wonderful Nuns who loved the children they teached, along with priests taken right out of a Saturday night live script, and still others I am sure are in the "hell" that they tormented small children with.

Father "R" He was God and the devil all rolled up in one, and was feared by small and big alike. He would wear all black, a cape down to his feet, a black sonbrero type hat and held his cigarette like a Nazi officer, he did not walk, he would float and glide; he was one scary dude.

One day my Mother began screaming at him. When he stood up in anger and reprimanded her, I thought I saw the gates of hevean open up behind him. Mom was brave!

The Portuguese and Irish Catholics lived Parallel lives when it came to religion. The church came before Government, and your parish Priest had the ear of god.

If you witnessed a Procession in Ireland, Portugal, or even in France, it would be difficult to tell them apart, to everything from the peasants dress, to the statues and flowers. It did not matter whether these Porcessions were held in the old country or in the streets of Fall River, New Bedford or Providence. The looked axaclty alike. And the tradition still goes on today. (The only difference is they carry cell phones and speak on them as they march. (?)


It is not until you see the nations flag that you could tell what country these humble people are from. This was the Catholic way. It was that way in Bridget's time, right up to mine.

One had deep respect and reverence for the church. And the idea that you could practically buy yourself into heaven, was one many of the many practices.

So, the fact that Bridget left so much to the church is not unusal. After all, the next step, Peter and the Gates.

I am sure that Bridget carried a great guilt. Many must of felt she knew more then she wish to volunteer. Thus, perhaps why she shunned family.

And, if she knew more than she testified to, then God would know. The terrible guilt she carried, and dare not confess it to God (through a priest, which is the only way it could get to God) she perhaps felt fear of possibly going to hell, where they crushed your head, poured acid down your throat, and stuck pitchforks in your eyes.

Or at least that is what Father R. told me, when I was 7 years old.

Or like the statue of Christ that hung over the blackboard in every classroom; if I was out of line in class the Nun would point at it and tell me that it was me placing those thorns on His head, and every drop of blood I could count I would need to awnser for. If I still felt the same today, I would will everything I own to the church for the salvation of my soul. Child abuse today.

Perhaps, that is what Bridget feared. Perhaps she carried it into adult hood like my Mom did? Terrible Guilt trip. The Catholic churchs, especially for the Portuguese, Irish and French in Fall River where I grew up, wheeled a lot of power in the minds of it's followers.

[Audrey]

Nowadays it has been my experience (Like when my FIL died) that the memorial money sent to the family in cards is gifted in a manner such as this.

My mama left explicit instructions as to how much she wanted given for this purpose.

Generally, we (my family) have given the standard 10% of income amount for the amount of time we wanted masses said. If mama was giving $1 a month to the church while living-- we would give that amount multiplied by as many months as we wished the masses said for. for a year, $12.

In many cases, the family needs the memorial money to help cover the cost of the funeral. In the community I live in, unless the family specifies the money to a certain charity or cause-- memorial money is sent in sympathy cards and most likely used by the family to cover the cost of the funeral.

Another odd thing ... I have heard of people who, unable to attend the funeral due to great distance send the family (as a memorial gift) the amount of money they calculate they would spend traveling to the service. I find this custom a bit perplexing and wonder if anyone else has even heard of this.

[mbhenty]

Just wanted to add one more thing>

Hope to all strong Catholics that I did not speak harsh words. It was my personal experience and not a proclamation or condemnation of Catholic doctrine, Catholics, or the Catholic Church.

I made the comparison to Bridget only becasuse I saw my Mother suffer in fear over tremendous guilt all her life, over her Catholic faith and beliefs that she held dear.

So hope I did not insult anyone. Thanks greatly for your understanding.

[mbhenty]

Oh yes, then the 70s kicked in and I discovered Alice in Wonderland and the guilt went away!

[Kat]

Fall River Religious Parade
The photos are c. 1943-1950.

[mbhenty]

Wow Kat: Cool. I use to march in those when I was a little boy. (in my mind I'm still a little boy.) One's hands were folded infront of your chest and they were wrapped with a roseray. I can still feel it, my arms killing me an my hands all sweaty from being locked together tight.

Try'n to figure out which parish that is. Looks like it may be Santo Christo on Colombia Street? not sure though.

As you must of sorted out by now, I'm full of stories. When I was a little boy this boy Alberto was playing with a fire cracker and it went off in his face. He was 12 and lost his sight for a while. When he got his sight back his mother and father were so thrilled that they made him march on his knees throughout the whole thing. Will never forget that.

Thanks Kat for the memories, Cool. See not all my memories are bad ones, thought I thought I saw father R in that cloud behind the..............

[Harry]

Which book has the whole Minnie Green story in it?
I always wished a member would double-check that story about the Library in Montana.

It's Radin (at least in the books on the case) who claims credit for "discovering" the Minnie Green story.

From page 234+, paperback edition:

Through the help of Miss Mollie O'Meara of the Butte Public Library, this writer can reveal for the first time some of the history of Bridget after the trial, and the story of her strange behavior when she thought she was dying.
Bridget Sullivan never returned to the Borden home after the trial and she disappeared not long afterward from Keeper Hunt's home where she had remained as a domestic. If she did go to Ireland, she returned later to this country because she died in a hospital in Butte, Montana, on Thursday, March 26, 1948, at the age of eighty-two. She is buried in Mt. Olivet Cemetery in Anaconda.
Bridget Sullivan first appeared in Anaconda several years after the murders. There she married a man named Sullivan, so there was no change in her last name. Bridget was close-mouthed about her past and apparently told no one in Anaconda about her connection with the Borden case. She lived there for forty-five years and then, after a serious illness, moved to Butte, where she remained until her death.
The strange episode occurred during Bridget's serious illness in Anaconda when she was stricken with pneumonia and thought she was dying. When Bridget first emigrated from Ireland, she came to this country with a girl friend from her own home town. They separated soon after landing; Bridget settled in New England, and her friend went on to Montana. They corresponded irregularly over the years. The friend married and became Mrs. Minnie Green. Bridget never wrote to her friend about the Borden murders and Mrs. Green did not hear of the case at the time it happened.
When Bridget finally came to Montana and settled in Anaconda, she resumed her friendship with Mrs. Green, who was living in Butte, about twenty-seven miles distant. The friends visited each other but Bridget still did not mention the Borden murders to her childhood companion.
In 1942, when they were both about seventy-five years of age, Mrs. Green received an urgent telephone call from Bridget who said that she was dying, wanted to see her friend, and had a secret she wanted to confide to her before she passed away, Mrs. Green had to make arrangements to get to Anaconda and this took her a little time. When she arrived, Bridget had passed the crisis in her illness and she recovered shortly afterward.
Several days after visiting Bridget, Mrs. Green entered the Butte Public Library. Miss O'Meara noticed an elderly woman staring at the stacks of books and in obvious need of assistance. The woman hesitantly asked if the library had any books on real murders, and when she learned there were quite a few, asked if anything had been written on the Lizzie Borden case. She told the librarian how Bridget had sent for her and related what occurred during her visit to Anaconda. While the principals were alive, Miss O'Meara never revealed the story; she did not even tell anybody that Bridget Sullivan was living in the area. Since both Bridget and Mrs. Green were dead, she consented in 1960 to tell me the details.
Mrs. Green told Miss O'Meara that Bridget had informed her old friend for the first time that she had been a witness in the Borden case. Bridget said that her testimony was favorable to Lizzie who, to show her gratitude, had given her money to visit her parents in Ireland, and added that the Borden lawyer had advised her to remain in Ireland and never return to the United States. Bridget said she bought a farm for her parents and stocked it with horses, cows, pigs, chickens and sheep. Later, Bridget said, she became restless, obtained a passport under another name and returned to this country, going to Anaconda. Mrs. Green said that Bridget told her she was fond of Lizzie and frequently took her part in family disputes. Bridget also said she had testified only to the truth at the trial.
Mrs. Green, who had known Bridget since they, were children, was frankly skeptical of her friend's story. She failed to find anything in it to account for Bridget's urgent demand that she rush to her bedside because she wanted to confide something to her before she died. Mrs. Green borrowed several books on the case from the library and, returned them several days afterward. When Miss O'Meara asked if she had learned anything, the older woman shook her head, looked puzzled, and left. As far as Miss O'Meara knows, she never came to the library again. Bridget recovered and moved to Butte. Whether the two old friends saw each other after this episode is also unknown.
Believers in Lizzie's guilt can seize upon this incident to bolster their claim that Bridget withheld information and was paid off by Lizzie. It also would help substantiate the stories about her return to Ireland with a lot of money. Bridget's statement to Mrs. Green is the only evidence that she may have gone back for a time. Bridget still had relatives living in Fall River after the trial and could have heard from them what was being said about her.
There are many reasons to be skeptical of the story Bridget told Mrs. Green. As Mrs. Green realized, Bridget had really said nothing which could explain why she had asked an elderly friend to hurry to her bedside. Her claim that she interjected herself into family disputes to side with Lizzie is unbelievable. So is her insistence that she told only the truth at the trial. And despite what she told Mrs. Green, her trial testimony, as has been shown, was anything but favorable to Lizzie. There are also serious discrepancies in her testimony concerning that vital half hour of time unaccounted for on the morning of the murders. One can only speculate as to what Bridget might have told Mrs. Green had she still thought she was dying when her friend finally arrived."

[DWilly]

I was born and raised a Roman Catholic and I am aware of people having Masses said for the dead. When my Mother died back in 1999, we just had our family priest come to the funeral and we also had prayer cards. However, thus far we have not had Masses said for her. When I attend Mass and look at the bulletin I read about the Intentions for the Masses for that week. I really don't recall anyone having a Mass said every week for a year. That is why I wondered about Bridget. Seemed to me like she might have had something on her mind that worried her so, she left enough money to have a number of Masses said for her.


I also, would like to know what happened between her and some of her family? Why did she leave some out of her Will?

[Audrey]

I come from a small family, just one brother whom I adore.

Like Emma, he has enough money of his own to be comfortable....

But I can imagine there are a lot of reasons that someone would decide not to leave someone money. All familes are dysfunctional in their own way!

[theebmonique]

Like I posted earlier, leaving the money for Masses to be said, could very well be because of feeling guilty...and wanting to offer up what she could for forgiveness.


Tracy...

[1bigsteve]

Bridget could have felt guilty just by her association with Lizzie, or just living in the house at the time of the killings, whether she knew anything about the murders or not.

It's common for people to "make peace with their maker" as they are approaching the end of their life even if they committed no real crimes. My grandparents went through this. This may have been what Bridget was doing. But...

-1bigsteve (o:

[RayS]

...
According to the Inflation Calculator at http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

That amount in 2005 dollars is slightly less than $850.
...

You all should know that this 'calculator' is based on a political calculation, not the real factors quoted in Simon Winchester's book on San Francisco losses from the 1906 fire.
There are other real world factors that produce a much higher value. $100 may have been about a months wages for an office worker (clerk) in 1948 (as from a book published then).

[Audrey]

...
According to the Inflation Calculator at http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

That amount in 2005 dollars is slightly less than $850.
...

You all should know that this 'calculator' is based on a political calculation, not the real factors quoted in Simon Winchester's book on San Francisco losses from the 1906 fire.
There are other real world factors that produce a much higher value. $100 may have been about a months wages for an office worker (clerk) in 1948 (as from a book published then).

Ray, please do calculate what a $100 gift to the church for masses for the repose of the soul in 1948 would be in 2006 money.

I am interested in seeing your results.

[Audrey]

According to http://www.tvhistory.tv/1948%20QF.htm

The minimum wage was .40 cents per hour in 1948 and it would have taken someone 250 hours at that wage to earn $100.

The current Federal minimum wage today is $5.15, $5.15 multiplied by 250 is $1287.50. Still not a large gift by most standards.

Take the bread example... .14 cents per loaf in 1948. I can buy cheap bread for about $1 per loaf today-- or a better one for about $2 per loaf.

$100 in 1948 would have purchased 714.28 loaves of bread.

I could get 714 loaves of cheap bread today for the same money, still not a large gift.

Bridgett could have sent 3333 letters for her $100 at the time of her death and had change. Today, I could send 3333 letters for $1299.87.

Anyway you cut it-- it was a nice gift to the church but it certainly wasn't a remarkable one.

[Audrey]

...
According to the Inflation Calculator at http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

That amount in 2005 dollars is slightly less than $850.
...

You all should know that this 'calculator' is based on a political calculation, not the real factors quoted in Simon Winchester's book on San Francisco losses from the 1906 fire.
There are other real world factors that produce a much higher value. $100 may have been about a months wages for an office worker (clerk) in 1948 (as from a book published then).

Was Bridgett an office clerk at the time of her death?

[Robert Harry]

Hello all,
Couldn't resist responding to this one. I've never revealed this on this forum before, but I was a Catholic priest for 17 years before I decided to leave the priesthood and get married. (I left with peace, and received the proper dispensations from the church). The whole concept of having Masses offered for the repose of people's souls has to do with Catholic theology. Catholics believe in heaven, hell and purgatory. In order to enter heaven, one must be perfectly attuned to God's love. Since most humans leave this world less than perfect, this is understood to be quite a merciful opportunity given to people to be purified (hence the name "purgatory"--a purgation). In contemporary times, we have lost some of the sense of urgency that Catholics have traditionally felt to pray for the "faithful departed." However, leaving fairly substantial sums of money for Masses has nothing to do with someone having "a guilty conscience"--remember, the supposition was that every one of us fails in some way to really be fully attuned to God's love. So, it was presumed that everyone needed help to get to heave. In short, having lots of Masses said for a deceased person would speak more of the piety of the deceased or of that person's family than any presumed guilt. So, at least in terms of the life of an ordinary Catholic in Bridget's day, this whole idea that since she had a lot of masses said meant she felt guilty is really barking up the wrong tree. Nearly everyone who had some means would be expected to do this. There are even people (still today) who leave special funds for Masses to be offered in perpetuity on the anniversay of death. Very few of them, I would guess, would be an accomplic to murder.

[doug65oh]

Well said, sir!

[Allen]

Thank you so much for your perspective on things Robert Harry. It is very much appreciated.

[theebmonique]

Thank you for clearing things up Robert. Your experience definitely makes you an expert on the subject ! I think maybe I should have paid more attention in my CCD classes.


Tracy...

[Kat]

Thanks Harry for all the typing! I appreciate the response! And thanks Robert Harry for the info! Always nice to have an expert at something chime in and educate us!

[Robert Harry]

You're very welcome, all. I've been a "stranger" here as far as posting for a while, but I have been regularly visiting the site. Now that I have revealed my religious background, I can say that I have been very interested in the impact of religion on Lizzie. As far as I can see, the Borden family was oddly out of character--in my opinion--for the general trend of the late 19th Century (and of New England in particular). Maybe I should open a new thread here. The family does not seem to have been particularly intererested in religious practice. No source indicates any real religious zeal on the part of the Borden family. The sources that I have read indicate that Lizzie was the "religious" one--she taught Sunday school, volunteered for the flower mission, etc. In my opinion, the family was "lukewarm" at best regarding church matters. I can't help but think that Andrew got turned off by the demands of church pastors for money and perhaps even had a verbal confrontation with a minister (witness his reticence to call for Dr. Bowen when the family was sick, and his argumentation about the fee that the doctor would charge) because of requests for money from a man who was known to be of means. I'm beginning to think that at least someone in the family (Andrew?) had paranoid tendencies. Lizzie, on the contrary, did not. She seems to have been the only family member who was remembered for involvement in the community. To me it is clear that, forgoing all murder theories, there was a fundamental and irreparable disconnect between Lizzie and her father which would suggest extremely pronounced tension and stress in the household. The "paranoia" is evidenced by the strict system of keeping doors locked in the household. We don't know much about Andrew's involvement with church and religion, but I suspect it was minimal at best.

[Susan]

According to Marianna Holmes, Abby did attend church with Lizzie:

Page 1498, Trial volume 2;

Q. Did you know Mrs. Abby Borden, her stepmother?
A. I was but very little acquainted with her. I have known her for a great many years--know who she was; no particular acquaintance with her.

Q. Did she attend church there?
A. She did.

Q. The same church?
A. She did.

Page 1499

Q. Have you within a year of the murder, say, seen Miss Lizzie and her step mother going to church together?
A. I did.

Q. Did they sit together?
A. They did.

Q. Go away together?
A. They did.

So, I guess that leaves Andrew and Emma out of the churchgoing loop. Abby may have been part of other charitable groups outside of the church, I seem to recall in the past that Augusta had found something about an event that may have been our Abby. I wonder if Bridget attended church regularly? Oh, and thanks for all the info, Robert Harry.

[DWilly]

According to Marianna Holmes, Abby did attend church with Lizzie:

Page 1498, Trial volume 2;

Q. Did you know Mrs. Abby Borden, her stepmother?
A. I was but very little acquainted with her. I have known her for a great many years--know who she was; no particular acquaintance with her.

Q. Did she attend church there?
A. She did.

Q. The same church?
A. She did.

Page 1499

Q. Have you within a year of the murder, say, seen Miss Lizzie and her step mother going to church together?
A. I did.

Q. Did they sit together?
A. They did.

Q. Go away together?
A. They did.

So, I guess that leaves Andrew and Emma out of the churchgoing loop. Abby may have been part of other charitable groups outside of the church, I seem to recall in the past that Augusta had found something about an event that may have been our Abby. I wonder if Bridget attended church regularly? Oh, and thanks for all the info, Robert Harry.

I wonder if going to church with Lizzie was Abby's attempt to still try to form some sort of bond with Lizzie. It seems so sad that poor Abby was still trying to win the love of a stepdaughter that just wasn't going to ever love her back.

[RayS]

...
According to the Inflation Calculator at http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

That amount in 2005 dollars is slightly less than $850.
...

You all should know that this 'calculator' is based on a political calculation, not the real factors quoted in Simon Winchester's book on San Francisco losses from the 1906 fire.
There are other real world factors that produce a much higher value. $100 may have been about a months wages for an office worker (clerk) in 1948 (as from a book published then).

Ray, please do calculate what a $100 gift to the church for masses for the repose of the soul in 1948 would be in 2006 money.

I am interested in seeing your results.

If $100 was a months wages for an office worker (40 hours at 50 cents) then a comparable figure given $8 hour would be $320 time 4 = $1,280.
Do NOT use a calculation designed to lower the actual cost of living.
IF a house sold for $10,000 in 1948 it would probably go for $150,000 today. Your results may vary.

[Audrey]

You all should know that this 'calculator' is based on a political calculation, not the real factors quoted in Simon Winchester's book on San Francisco losses from the 1906 fire.
There are other real world factors that produce a much higher value. $100 may have been about a months wages for an office worker (clerk) in 1948 (as from a book published then).

Ray, please do calculate what a $100 gift to the church for masses for the repose of the soul in 1948 would be in 2006 money.

I am interested in seeing your results.

If $100 was a months wages for an office worker (40 hours at 50 cents) then a comparable figure given $8 hour would be $320 time 4 = $1,280.
Do NOT use a calculation designed to lower the actual cost of living.
IF a house sold for $10,000 in 1948 it would probably go for $150,000 today. Your results may vary.

Again... Was Bridget an officer clerk at the time of her death? I fail to see how this comparison relates!

What $100 meant to Bridget would mean something very different to Alva Vanderbilt....

You failed to show a fair calculation of what the cost of masses for the repoe of the soul would convert to today's dollars from 1948 dollars....

Arguing for the sake of it is very juvenile.

[RayS]

According to http://www.tvhistory.tv/1948%20QF.htm

The minimum wage was .40 cents per hour in 1948 and it would have taken someone 250 hours at that wage to earn $100.

The current Federal minimum wage today is $5.15, $5.15 multiplied by 250 is $1287.50. Still not a large gift by most standards.

Take the bread example... .14 cents per loaf in 1948. I can buy cheap bread for about $1 per loaf today-- or a better one for about $2 per loaf.

$100 in 1948 would have purchased 714.28 loaves of bread.

I could get 714 loaves of cheap bread today for the same money, still not a large gift.

Bridgett could have sent 3333 letters for her $100 at the time of her death and had change. Today, I could send 3333 letters for $1299.87.

Anyway you cut it-- it was a nice gift to the church but it certainly wasn't a remarkable one.

I think people worked a 5.5 day week then, 44 hours. An office clerk would probably get more than the minimum wage; say 50 cents / hour.
First class postage is 13 times more than the 3 cent first class.
Gold is around $600 a Troy ounce rather than $32; coins are no longer silver, etc. I don't remember what a loaf of locally baked bread was (we ate no other in those days).
ANY simple minded calculator is probably wrong. WHAT is its provenance? Now if it came from the Treasury Dept or IRS, that would be different.

I hope you don't believe opinion from an "Ann Slander" or someone who gives wisecracks instead of serious advice.

[RayS]

...
Arguing for the sake of it is very juvenile.

NO, you are wrong again. It is the search for TRUTH.
There are many ways to compare prices to 60 years ago. Please don't make any more mistakes on this unproven calculator.
What next, "research" form Wikipedia or somebody's postings?

P.S. I still haven't read anything from your reading of Radin's book on Lizzie. I often wondered about your bonafides.
P.P.S. I read that book years ago, but no longer have it available. So I must trust the others to quote correctly.

[RayS]

I remember reading a quote from Bridget, where she said she was afraid to speak about the murders for fear that nasty man would get her like Mrs. Borden. Anyone to verify this?

[Robert Harry]

Thanks for that church info, Susan. It does seem odd that Lizzie and Abby went to church together, sat together, and went home together, even after Lizzie stopped calling Abby "mother," and, as we know, had grievances against her about property rights. We all know that religious observance is no guarantee of virtue--even religious leaders are capable of gross scandal, as we all are aware. And yet, the pressure to be considered "church-going" seems to have been much stronger in Lizzie's day than our own. I'm wondering if Lizzie's mind wasn't compartmentalized, in a similar manner to her home, with different parts locked off from others. For example, she could attend church in good conscience with a woman whom she (at the least) resented. What I'm trying to get at is that attempts to "prove" Lizzie's "innocence" by testifying to her church attendance may not be convincing. Yet, there is something about her that suggests a sincere interest and devotion to faith (perhaps more strong than the rest of her family).

[Wordweaver]

We all know that religious observance is no guarantee of virtue--even religious leaders are capable of gross scandal, as we all are aware. And yet, the pressure to be considered "church-going" seems to have been much stronger in Lizzie's day than our own. I'm wondering if Lizzie's mind wasn't compartmentalized, in a similar manner to her home, with different parts locked off from others. For example, she could attend church in good conscience with a woman whom she (at the least) resented.

IMO, you've hit the nail on the head. One of the great mysteries of the case is how a woman who loved animals and taught Sunday School and wasn't an obvious monster could commit such a heinous crime, much less live with herself afterward. (Assuming Lizzie did commit the murders.) I am 80% sure that Lizzie did do the murders, but I am not troubled at all by wondering how she or anyone else could live with the guilt. I've seen a lot of people compartmentalize their minds and lives that way. It takes a toll, no question, but it makes it possible for people to survive even the worst memories.

Such compartmentalization doesn't have to rise to full-fledged Dissociative Identity Disorder (AKA multiple personality -- think Sybil), although it's occasionally been suggested that Lizzie may have been a multiple.

As for the church-going, Andrew is said to have fallen out with one church over financial issues. And you're right that the Bordens seemed curiously non-New England; they're very far from the fervor that led one of their ancestors to follow Anne Hutchinson into the wilderness. If Andrew worshipped anything, it was money. What Abby and Emma valued we can only guess.

I'm glad you've come out of lurk.

[Susan]

Thanks for that church info, Susan.

You're welcome, Robert Harry. Yes, I too find it odd about Lizzie attending church with Abby, but, that may have been to keep tongues from wagging. I'm sure there would be talk if Abby arrived at the church alone only to have Lizzie show up alone a few minutes later. Perhaps it was all about keeping up appearances, putting on a united front for the Borden name despite their differances.

I agree, I don't think that just because Lizzie attended church and served on different boards of church charity groups doesn't mean that she was a saint by any means. She could easily rationalize what she was doing or compartmentalize the different parts of her life so that she saw no wrong with her actions or words. Kind of made me wonder, if Lizzie is guilty of all the things we hear about her; murder, shoplifting, etc., how many of the ten commandments did Lizzie not break?

[DWilly]

Thanks for that church info, Susan. It does seem odd that Lizzie and Abby went to church together, sat together, and went home together, even after Lizzie stopped calling Abby "mother," and, as we know, had grievances against her about property rights. We all know that religious observance is no guarantee of virtue--even religious leaders are capable of gross scandal, as we all are aware. And yet, the pressure to be considered "church-going" seems to have been much stronger in Lizzie's day than our own. I'm wondering if Lizzie's mind wasn't compartmentalized, in a similar manner to her home, with different parts locked off from others. For example, she could attend church in good conscience with a woman whom she (at the least) resented. What I'm trying to get at is that attempts to "prove" Lizzie's "innocence" by testifying to her church attendance may not be convincing. Yet, there is something about her that suggests a sincere interest and devotion to faith (perhaps more strong than the rest of her family).

Tonight I was channel surfing and on cable they showed an old "America's Most Wanted" episode. It was the one on John List. He was the man who murdered his mother, his wife and his children. He was also a devout Lutheran. After the murders he even wrote a letter confessing his crime to his pastor. These murders took place in the 1970s and List believed that his family was giving into the evil that was all around them. His daughter had even wanted to get into acting which really upset List. In his twisted mind he believed he was actually saving them.

[1bigsteve]

I remember reading a quote from Bridget, where she said she was afraid to speak about the murders for fear that nasty man would get her like Mrs. Borden. Anyone to verify this?

I remember reading the same thing but I can't remember which book it was in. It's been years ago. Bridget was worried that "they" would come back for her.

-1bigsteve (o:

[Audrey]

I remember reading a quote from Bridget, where she said she was afraid to speak about the murders for fear that nasty man would get her like Mrs. Borden. Anyone to verify this?

I remember reading the same thing but I can't remember which book it was in. It's been years ago. Bridget was worried that "they" would come back for her.

-1bigsteve (o:

if someone was murdered in the home I lived in, I would be nervous too!

I wouldn't have stayed in that house under any circumstances.

I think Bridget acted far more sensibly than the Borden girls did.

[mbhenty]

I don't know where else it is mentioned, but towards the end of Spiering's book, in his epilogue, he mentions that Bridget was in fear that if she returned to the house the killer would get her next. He doesn't add it as a quote by Bridget though, but would need to find a more reliable historian than old Frankie boy!

But, I think I remember reading it somewhere else. Whether it has become popular folklore or she really said it, I would have to go searching. Sure someone will come up with an answer before long.



(And just about the time Radin's book hit the bookstores, Gene Pitney was on his way in making his own mark in the music world. I loved his voice. Will miss old Gene. A stitch in music that's missing today, good vocals... )

[RayS]

State laws vary. In my limited experience, the purpose of testimonials for a person is to show good character. Our state law says if you are not convinced of guilt, then testimony of good character should make you choose innocence.
Logically and legally, people are innocent until proven guilty. You can NEVER prove innocence.

[RayS]

Some years ago I looked up the value of US Savings Bonds on a govt web site. IF anyone knows of a govt site that adjusts the value of money, please say so.
Simon Winchester's book about the losses of the Frisco fire of 1906 (100th anniversary on April 18) notes the different calculations that can arrive at different values. Replacement cost is on, minimum wage another, etc.

[Audrey]

Some years ago I looked up the value of US Savings Bonds on a govt web site. IF anyone knows of a govt site that adjusts the value of money, please say so.
Simon Winchester's book about the losses of the Frisco fire of 1906 (100th anniversary on April 18) notes the different calculations that can arrive at different values. Replacement cost is on, minimum wage another, etc.

Do you have a source of where you 'looked that up'???

[Smudgeman]

Some years ago I looked up the value of US Savings Bonds on a govt web site. IF anyone knows of a govt site that adjusts the value of money, please say so.
Simon Winchester's book about the losses of the Frisco fire of 1906 (100th anniversary on April 18) notes the different calculations that can arrive at different values. Replacement cost is on, minimum wage another, etc.

Alot of websites have incorrect information, government or not. The internet is fairly new, and in my opinion, can not be relied upon to be up to date and accurate.

[Jan]

Kat, I read the story of Minnie Green in Victoria Lincoln's book. Mrs Green was friendly with Mollie O'Mara, who was the librarian in Butte. Ms O'Mara spoke to Ms Lincoln about the case, though where Ms Lincoln got the idea that Bridget "had numerous children" I don't know. No attempt has ever been made to locate their descendants, as far as I know.

[Kat]

Thanks.
Back up a page and there is Harry describing Radin's investigation of the story. Radin was 1961, and Lincoln was 1967, so she might have followed his lead.
A couple of Borden scholars have gone out there to trace the story and any genealogy.
The results will probably be published sometime.
I'm still under the impression that Bridget had no children, from various sources, so people have checked.

[RayS]

Some years ago I looked up the value of US Savings Bonds on a govt web site. IF anyone knows of a govt site that adjusts the value of money, please say so.
Simon Winchester's book about the losses of the Frisco fire of 1906 (100th anniversary on April 18) notes the different calculations that can arrive at different values. Replacement cost is on, minimum wage another, etc.

Do you have a source of where you 'looked that up'???

I got it from a newspaper column circa 2000. Try www.irs.gov or search for "US Treasury". When I redeemed my bonds I was careful to do it after the 6 month interval so I didn't lose interest.

[Haulover]

it's good to see you, robert harry. 17 years it was....i knew there was something in your character i admired. i am not catholic, but i'm talking about devotion and the courage of change, etc. (very important issues with me personally.)

***To me it is clear that, forgoing all murder theories, there was a fundamental and irreparable disconnect between Lizzie and her father which would suggest extremely pronounced tension and stress in the household.***

i think that is a very insightful statement. you give substance to something that has been a "hunch" with me -- that there was no love in that house. legend has had it that she was at least "okay" with father but hated stepmother. i've sensed that lizzie didn't care much about andrew and vice versa. if people had understood all this (which is not easy to understand in the first place) -- they would not have regarded her "lack of evinced grief" as unusual.

[Kat]

I've been thinking a lot about Virgos lately because I have perceived a pattern which is very unusual, and therefore probably suspect and the accounts I base my new oddball theory on would probably seem biased against Virgos. So I don't know how to approach the subject.

A hint is that I have seen a pattern in Virgos I know, and who are related to me in ways-
One is that they are not naturally affectionate.
They are extremely modest, if not puritanical.
You can't get inside their head- meaning you cannot put your thought into their head.
They can be seemingly over-critical or judgemental.
They seem self-contained, almost aloof, and somewhat stiff in their demeanor.

I wondered about how these traits I have ennumerated came about-
is it natural to those born in this month's span
or did these traits develope because they did not feel safe within their own family? Any child who felt neglected might have these personality qualities?

Andrew might have been a child who was left to raise himself within his own family. That child will be bent on survival first, affection coming a distant second. So I wonder what Andrew Borden's upbringing was like? Maybe he slipped thru the cracks of his family?
What formed Andrew, the boy, into a man who would grow up to be murdered.

This is for the Astrologically-minded so I hope this evaluation is not offensive to anyone- I am thinking aloud.

What Andrew learned within his own family dynamic is what he would mirror in his own marriage and in the raising of his own children- that tendency where a cycle, once begun, is hard to break.
Were children valued in the times Andrew grew up in?
Also he seems to have had sisters who died. He was the only surviving boy.

[RayS]

Kat, I read the story of Minnie Green in Victoria Lincoln's book. Mrs Green was friendly with Mollie O'Mara, who was the librarian in Butte. Ms O'Mara spoke to Ms Lincoln about the case, though where Ms Lincoln got the idea that Bridget "had numerous children" I don't know. No attempt has ever been made to locate their descendants, as far as I know.

I'll assume the quote was accurate. Any children would not want the publicity, and, the law would ban any publicity about a long-ago case. Refer to "The Case of the Queenly Contestant" by Erle Stanley Gardner (of Malden Mass, his Mom descended from the Mayflower boat people.

To those who claim Bridget was "too old", I would argue that w/o official documentation she could very well have made herself older to pass the minimum age. I know of a 13 yr old ancestor who told immigration she was "16", but small for her age. Just so.

PS My remarks are made for humor, any Mayflower people pls excuse. I did see he 1949 film, which explained why they landed in Mass rather than Virginia. NY & NJ were then Dutch possessions.