dysfunctional family behavior

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue May 23, 2006 1:14 pm

Could it be that the police mispelled Curry as Currier? Sort of like they listed Allen Eagen instead of Ellen? I found no listing for a Phebe Currier in Fall River in 1880.

diana · Post by **diana** » Tue May 23, 2006 2:53 pm

That's true. The police did make a number of mistakes with the names of witnesses.

But the Phoebe Curry in the 1880 census is around 14 years older than the Phebe Ann listed as Andrew's sibling in the Earl & Sons' Borden genealogy.

So I'm still wondering if Harrington was correct in reporting that Phebe Currier was Andrew's sister. It could even be that Charles Sawyer provided that lead to the police because he'd lived in the same house with her prior to her death.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed May 24, 2006 1:49 am

Abby's mother was named Sarah Sawyer. Forgive me if this has already been brought up.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed May 24, 2006 3:01 am

How about Eighth Generation of Borden out of Hattie Borden Weld?
If someone has that, they'd find Abraham's children.
I only have to Sixth Gen. now. Richard #393- 6th gen.
Cynthia, can you follow Richard #393 to Abraham (#?) to Andrew to find this Phebe Ann?

diana · Post by **diana** » Wed May 24, 2006 12:54 pm

OK -- this is what I mean about genealogy -- all these numbers!!!
Here's a site that also shows Phoebe Ann as Andrew's sister.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... RDEN.shtml

I don't know how reliable the various genealogical sites are or what the numbers mean after the names -- but they must mean something to the smarter ones among us.

It's looking as though the sources that show Phebe/Phoebe Ann do not show the twin, Lurana. So now I'm wondering if children who died before their first birthday (as did the first Lurana) just don't get onto the family charts? (The other twin, Charlotte, was three when she died.)

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Wed May 24, 2006 1:01 pm

Allen @ Sun May 21, 2006 1:35 pm wrote:I guess what I'm getting at is, it is shown by testimony that Morse just showed up at the Borden's pretty much whenever he felt like it. Even when he was to do business with Andrew he just showed up at his leisure to do it. There was no set date for him to show up. He said they were expecting him, but were not sure when he would arrive. He showed up 'just as it happened.' This also to me doesn't speak of someone who is going to be ready to just jump right into getting the business done upon arrival.

But that may just have been the manners and customs of that time.
Relatives were welcome as they dropped in. (More likely on a Sunday?)

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Wed May 24, 2006 1:07 pm

Kat @ Sun May 21, 2006 4:39 pm wrote:...
Anyway, Morse was to arrange for oxen as well. Which he didn't.
The thing people bring up is that Morse was a horseman- some think he would just have ridden over from Dartmouth.
But Morse took the train, then had to hire a conveyance to go to Swansea. It doesn't sound like he was prepared to do what he said he came to do, so why come at all? He also said he could have left the same day on the 6 o'clock train.
It doesn't make sense- he gives reasons for coming and accomplishes nothing. He spends $ on the train, when there might have been teams he could have hired locally in Dartmouth, or even borrowed, and driven over to Swansea after stopping in Fall River. He didn't plan on staying because he came with no luggage and mentions the train schedule back on Wednesday. Mr. Davis, in the newspapers, also thinks Morse will be back at least by the next day. Why should Morse put off the errands he came to do, and have to come again on Saturday to do it all again? More money for a hired team or a train ticket etc. More time traveling, etc.

One thing that impressed me was Arnold Brown's comment on Morse hiring horses & buggy when he himself dealt in horses. It was like a car dealer hiring a taxi for a short trip! I think it implies an unforeseen need.
Morse may not have wanted to take horses & buggy since he would have to pay for their feed and storage (?) We can argue it either way.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Wed May 24, 2006 1:14 pm

Yooper @ Mon May 22, 2006 4:27 pm wrote:I think Morse would have actively participated in an effort to minimize or even cover up Lizzie's possible involvement. Lizzie and Emma were his only blood relations in the Borden household and he might have taken what he thought was his sister's perspective. I can see him behaving like what he thought his sister might have wanted.

I don't think Morse would have covered up any murder, unless he would have been indictable merely because he arranged a secret visit.
All that I know (from reading) is that is was a surprise to Uncle John.
Families often stick together when a suspect is innocent, and even when they deny any guilt to a family member. You only have to read the local newspapers for examples of this.
PS Morse was 10 years younger than Andy, and probably looked up to his older brother-in-law (did John have brotehrs?) That could explain a long friendship that lasted beyond the death of his sister.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Wed May 24, 2006 1:23 pm

Morse could well have minimized Lizzie's involvement to whatever extent he was capable. If he was surprised then maybe he wasn't involved. Since Andrew was dead, his concern was for Lizzie and Emma.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed May 24, 2006 2:04 pm

I think diana already touched on this but in Rebello page 70:

Through out his life, Morse traveled east during the summer and winter months visiting Fall River, New Bedford; Warren, Rhode Island, and Boston. He maintained a small boat in New Bedford, and he visited friends and relatives. While in New Bedford he spent time at the marble shop of ex-mayor Thomas Thompson discussing the existence of life after death. John Morse was fond of fishing and had an interest in having his fortune told.

He states John Morse was fond of fishing. Could someone fond of fishing have seen through Lizzie's alibi of being in the barn looking for lead to make sinkers? He also had known Lizzie all her life. Maybe he knew how unlikely a story that was simply upon hearing it. He knew Lizzie's character much better than police, or even Bridget. He was initially the one person in that house who knew Lizzie better than anybody else.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed May 24, 2006 5:52 pm

diana @ Wed May 24, 2006 1:54 pm wrote:OK -- this is what I mean about genealogy -- all these numbers!!!
Here's a site that also shows Phoebe Ann as Andrew's sister.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... RDEN.shtml

I don't know how reliable the various genealogical sites are or what the numbers mean after the names -- but they must mean something to the smarter ones among us.

It's looking as though the sources that show Phebe/Phoebe Ann do not show the twin, Lurana. So now I'm wondering if children who died before their first birthday (as did the first Lurana) just don't get onto the family charts? (The other twin, Charlotte, was three when she died.)

The assigning of numbers is really a very effecient way to keep the families straight.
You'd like it, Diana.

If you know the source used- say Hattie B. Weld- then by following the numbers you can skip other whole lineages within the Borden family and concentrate on the one you are following. Each tree usually uses a different numbering system- that's the only cause for any confusion.

Since I identify Weld as the source, and make known what generation I have printed out to (Sixth) and give the Richard number, then it's easy to find Richard. Once Richard is found (numbered as 393 in Weld), out of Richard (who is numbered as 238, his father), one can go to the next Chapter, which will be Generation Seven, look for Richard #393 as head of a family branch, see his children, get their numbers, then go to the next chapter, Generation Eight, and find them recounted by their numbers you collected from the earlier generation.

I prefer a tree look when I do genealogy, but the narrative kind needs these numbers. So do separate branches of a family. The numbers identify the family lineage.

In the Earl publication, the numbering is different.
I wouldn't use an online tree unless they gave their sources.

Note: This "Abraham" listed here as #244 is not our Abraham. See, he is the father of Simeon (#400). If you wanted this Simeon Borden, you would note his number (400) and go to the next chapter/generation, find Simeon 400 and folow his line.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed May 24, 2006 6:02 pm

So what is the Sarah Sawyer connection?

And I have fished and I had sure gone thru my garage to look for *weights*. Anything that could be used- nuts, bolts, something light I could tie on the line that I would not lose after the first cast. One doesn't need actual store-bought bits and pieces for sinkers.

Did Uncle John have brothers? Surely you must know the answer to that.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed May 24, 2006 8:00 pm

But was she that interested in fishing that she would go out to the barn on a hot day to look for something to make sinkers when she could just go the store and buy some? I'm sure they didn't cost an arm and a leg. That's what I was getting at. What would uncle John have thought about that scenerio? Would he have believed it? If Lizzie enjoyed fishing so much, did she ever fish with John who was fond of fishing? He knew Lizzie better than just about everyone there. Would he have believed it?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu May 25, 2006 1:36 am

I don't think Lizzie had done much fishing in recent years, if that answers your question. She also had not been to the barn hardly at all since the horse was gone, according to Bridget. I hadn't heard that Uncle John fished but supposedly he had a boat in New Bedford. I don't know if people with boats automatically fish. I really don't know that.
I haven't fished in a long while, but if I had a hankering, I would start looking at what old stuff was in my garage.
But our Lizzie could easily go downtown and slip a whole handful of sinkers in her pocket right?

I can't say what Uncle John believed. I don't think he was any pushover. But he told some tales himself that sound suspiciously like he was quickly trying to cover Lizzie's butt by suggesting the cellar door was open. His tales seem quickly made up- not much thought went into it, if that is what you mean?

Why do you say twice, that " He knew Lizzie better than just about everyone there" ?

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu May 25, 2006 3:08 am

Kat @ Thu May 25, 2006 1:36 am wrote:
Why do you say twice, that " He knew Lizzie better than just about everyone there" ?

Because he was initially the only one in the house who had known Lizzie the longest. All her life. Everyone else who had known her longer was either dead or out of town. She was the daughter of his sister, his niece. He knew her personality, and her habits, better than anyone else present. If she was too lazy to have gone out to the barn on a hot day, and really didn't think all that much about fishing, he would've known it. I think so would Emma once she got there, but Morse arrived home first. Bridget might have known a good deal about her from living there, but I think she just got the tip of the ice berg.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu May 25, 2006 3:48 am

OK but it's your opinion Morse knew Lizzie well, right?
But that whole Morse side of the family moved away from Fall River sometime between 1850 and 1860, I believe. Before she was born.

Anthony Morse, Lizzie's grandfather, moved west to Girard, Ill. with his second wife Hannah. Uncle John had first moved west in 1854. He lived in Minnesota for a year, then spent 14 years in Illinois. He moved to Hastings, Iowa around 1869, until 1890, when he returned east. During that time west, he did travel back and forth visiting several times, which he recounts in his inquest testimony, and he wrote letters to Emma- but out of 13 Morse children, minus the ones who died young, only 2 stayed in Fall River: Mary Louisa, and Sarah.
--( Hatchet Vol. 1, Issue 3, "The Elusive John Morse," Joe Carlson pages 12-19).
That is why I wouldn't necessarilly say he knew Lizzie "better than just about anyone there."

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu May 25, 2006 5:03 am

Of all the people at the house that day right after the murders, who would've known her better? The police? Alice Russell? Mrs. Churchill? John Morse? Let me try to put it this way. I guess I'm not saying what I want to say in the right way, because all the focus is going to the wrong points of what I'm trying to say. Who would've had more knowledge about Lizzie's true personality, and not just what she chose to let people outside her family see? I'm sure Morse had talks with her father, and Abby, about who knows what. Didn't they ever discuss Lizzie and her behavior? Did Emma discuss it in her letters? He had been the brunt of her displeasure, as was evidenced by her ignoring him on this visit. He had seen Lizzie be the real Lizzie. He had also spent an entire year living there. I still feel that he probably knew her better than anyone else that was there that day, until Emma got home that is.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Thu May 25, 2006 8:35 am

Allen @ Thu May 25, 2006 4:03 am wrote:Of all the people at the house that day right after the murders, who would've known her better? The police? Alice Russell? Mrs. Churchill? John Morse?

Who would've had more knowledge about Lizzie's true personality, and not just what she chose to let people outside her family see? I'm sure Morse had talks with her father, and Abby, about who knows what. Didn't they ever discuss Lizzie and her behavior? Did Emma discuss it in her letters? He had been the brunt of her displeasure, as was evidenced by her ignoring him on this visit. He had seen Lizzie be the real Lizzie. He had also spent an entire year living there. I still feel that he probably knew her better than anyone else that was there that day, until Emma got home that is.

John Morse may have known Lizzie all her life, but I highly doubt that he knew her better than anyone else who was there that day. Correct me if I am wrong, but, it does not appear to me that Uncle John had a close relationship with Lizzie. As far as I know, Uncle John's visits were not with Lizzie or Emma, they were with Andrew. I also highly doubt that Andrew, Abby or Emma discussed Lizzie's behaviors with John Morse, uncle or not. I think that since Bridget was a servant of the Borden's for the three years prior to the murders, she most likely knew Lizzie's current behaviors and true personality, at that time, better than anyone else who was there that day.

Would Uncle John have believed that Lizzie was so interested in fishing that she would go out to the barn on a hot day to look for something to make sinkers with? This is a good question, since Lizzie had not been fishing in what did she say, five years? I don't know what Uncle John thought or believed, but, I think he would have or should have questioned it, at least in his own mind.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Thu May 25, 2006 9:17 am

[quote="twinsrwe @ Thu May 25, 2006 9:35 am"] I also highly doubt that Andrew, Abby or Emma discussed Lizzie's behaviors with John Morse, uncle or not.

I don't have any proof of this, of course, but I totally disagree. I think that Andrew and Abby (excluding Emma) had a lot of problems with Lizzie and did seek Morse's advice and/or help in dealing with her. I've talked about this before how I think they were very troubled by Lizzie's behavior and were worried something would happen. I remember seeing somewhere that Andrew had asked Emma when she left for her stay with her friends just before the murder how he could get in touch with her. That shows to me that he was concerned that something could go wrong. I've always wondered if they planned to send Lizzie away to a hospital or something and had Morse there for support. And maybe Emma, who rarely went anywhere, left because she refused to be part of it. ( I keep looking at what was going on. Lizzie stealing things she didn't need, probably creating chaos with the "break-in", running around trying to buy poison, talking alot to more than one person about her intense dislike for her step mother, Parents being acutely sick with nausea and vomiting day and night before the murders, mother going to Dr. saying she thinks they are being poisoned, father locking up everything and then leaving key for everyone to see, Lizzie saying all kinds of paranoid things to Alice, etc. etc., and who knows what kinds of scenes were going on beyond closed doors- where there's smoke there's fire)

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Thu May 25, 2006 9:41 am

I agree with Angel, I think Lizzie was right on the edge. Emma was probably a stabilizing factor in Lizzie's life and she wasn't present at the time of the murders. I also get the idea that there was an element of desperation in the act. I had limited my thinking to rational considerations like Andrew making a will disfavoring his daughters, but it could simply be the result of mental instability. An attempt to buy prussic acid the day before the murders seems to indicate an immediate need, for whatever reason.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Thu May 25, 2006 9:53 am

I never thought of that before---What if, with all the tension in the house for whatever reason, Emma, who was always there in the past, wasn't there as a stabilizing force to keep Lizzie from going over the edge?

And maybe Emma knew that if she hadn't left, the murders wouldn't have occurred, and she felt guilty for the rest of her life. Maybe she was the one person who could keep Lizzie in check.

And yet another maybe-- maybe Morse realized the instability in Lizzie was approaching the boiling point and yet left the house in the morning to get away from the tension. Upon returning, he had a hard time going back into the house, afraid of what he was going to find. And then he carried some guilt with him the rest of his days too.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Thu May 25, 2006 10:15 am

It is a very interesting thought... Lizzie being sent away and offers an additional motive if she overheard plans regarding something of this nature.

If this had been the case, do you think Emma may have reacted differently towards Lizzie and perhaps not been so steadfast in insisting her innocence?

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Thu May 25, 2006 10:15 am

We are all entitled to our opinions. I just don't believe Lizzie's behaviors were discussed with Uncle John by anyone in the family.

John Morse dropped in unexpectedly the day before the murders - he was not summoned by either Andrew or Abby, that I know of. However, I do think that Lizzie was at a breaking point. Emma may or may not have been a stabilizing force in keeping Lizzie from going over the edge, after all, as far as I know, Emma disliked Abby as much if not more than Lizzie did.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Thu May 25, 2006 10:17 am

Audrey @ Thu May 25, 2006 9:15 am wrote:It is a very interesting thought... Lizzie being sent away and offers an additional motive if she overheard plans regarding something of this nature.

If this had been the case, do you think Emma may have reacted differently towards Lizzie and perhaps not been so steadfast in insisting her innocence?

Good point, Audrey.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Thu May 25, 2006 10:24 am

Audrey @ Thu May 25, 2006 11:15 am wrote:It is a very interesting thought... Lizzie being sent away and offers an additional motive if she overheard plans regarding something of this nature.

If this had been the case, do you think Emma may have reacted differently towards Lizzie and perhaps not been so steadfast in insisting her innocence?

Maybe she stood up for Lizzie because of her very guilt in feeling she could have prevented it. So, in a sense, she was either in denial over Lizzie's responsibility in this, or she felt that her lapse in judgment in leaving made her just as guilty, especially when she may have caused some of Lizzie's hatred for the step mother.

galacticgirl · Post by **galacticgirl** » Thu May 25, 2006 10:28 am

I don't understand though how Lizzie could have kept this mental illness in check for the rest of her life. Is that possible? Wouldn't there be many stories about 'incidents' other than strange looks & palm trees?

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Thu May 25, 2006 10:28 am

[quote="twinsrwe @ Thu May 25, 2006 11:15 am"]We are all intitled to our opinions. I just don't believe Lizzie's behaviors were discussed with Uncle John by anyone in the family. John Morse dropped in unexpectedly the day before the murders - he was not summoned by either Andrew or Abby, that I know of.

The family may have led Lizzie to believe he dropped in unexpectedly. There is no way of finding out if they did summon him, but it certainly was possible.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Thu May 25, 2006 10:32 am

Angel @ Thu May 25, 2006 10:24 am wrote:
Audrey @ Thu May 25, 2006 11:15 am wrote:It is a very interesting thought... Lizzie being sent away and offers an additional motive if she overheard plans regarding something of this nature.

If this had been the case, do you think Emma may have reacted differently towards Lizzie and perhaps not been so steadfast in insisting her innocence?

Maybe she stood up for Lizzie because of her very guilt in feeling she could have prevented it. So, in a sense, she was either in denial over Lizzie's responsibility in this, or she felt that her lapse in judgment in leaving made her just as guilty, especially when she may have caused some of Lizzie's hatred for the step mother.

She also could have been SO protective of Lizzie that she either just didn't care and thought Lizzie was justified in the crime... OR had fooled herself into believing Lizzie was healthy and incapable of such a crime. There are a lot of people who seem to refuse to see the negative side of a person and chalk it up to 'love' for that person.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Thu May 25, 2006 10:40 am

Emma might not have known about plans to send Lizzie away. Emma was away at the time, was this a random occurrance? It is possible that Andrew planned to take advantage of Emma's absence. Emma could have disagreed with a decision to confine Lizzie.

There was some sort of a symbiosis to the Emma/Lizzie relationship, they chose to remain together after the murders. Each had sufficient wealth to set up housekeeping on their own if they chose. I think it was as much of a mother/daughter relationship as it was siblings. That might have inspired Emma to protect Lizzie, no matter what the situation.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Thu May 25, 2006 10:45 am

Emma, who seldom traveled may have been encouraged to go away for a time in order that Lizzie be committed. It is very likely.

Andrew was reported to have made (rare) mention of problems in the family.

I think it was the natural thing for the girls to do to remain with one another. It would have been more unusual had they separated.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Thu May 25, 2006 10:49 am

Yooper @ Thu May 25, 2006 11:40 am wrote:Emma might not have known about plans to send Lizzie away. Emma was away at the time, was this a random occurrance? It is possible that Andrew planned to take advantage of Emma's absence. Emma could have disagreed with a decision to confine Lizzie.

There was some sort of a symbiosis to the Emma/Lizzie relationship, they chose to remain together after the murders. Each had sufficient wealth to set up housekeeping on their own if they chose. I think it was as much of a mother/daughter relationship as it was siblings. That might have inspired Emma to protect Lizzie, no matter what the situation.

You're right. Emma was probably an enabler. Which meant she was getting something out of their relationship too, or she would have separated herself from Lizzie. They were adults and really had no reason to stay together, especially since they had the money to do whatever they wanted.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Thu May 25, 2006 10:49 am

galacticgirl @ Thu May 25, 2006 11:28 am wrote:I don't understand though how Lizzie could have kept this mental illness in check for the rest of her life. Is that possible? Wouldn't there be many stories about 'incidents' other than strange looks & palm trees?

This doesn't have to be an ongoing illness. Once Andrew and Abby were out of the way, the perceived crisis was eliminated. If the shoplifting can be attributed to an attempt to embarrass Andrew, then her indiscretions become focused.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Thu May 25, 2006 10:53 am

I forget- when did the shoplifting thing (of the pictures) occur? And when did she stop seeing Nance?

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Thu May 25, 2006 11:13 am

If Morse had been sent for in order to support a decision by Andrew to have Lizzie confined, it might explain his presence. He need not have been aware of the purpose for the request until he arrived. If he disagreed with the decision and refused to go along with it, or if Andrew was sufficiently ill to be unable to follow through, it might explain his rather awkward and disjointed movements while he was there. It seemed like he was justifying his presence with random errands.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Thu May 25, 2006 11:24 am

Did they need an additional signature by a family member to commit her? What were the laws then? The rights of people being put away?

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu May 25, 2006 11:42 am

I also wonder why there is all this stress on the fact that John Morse had been a horsemen, so it was odd that he would hire a horse or a team.

Inquest testimony of John Morse page 94:

Q. What is your business?
A. When I am at home, farming.

Q. Here?
A. Nothing particular. I have been helping Mr. Davis some in the meat business he is in there.

Q. Have you any connection with the horse business?
A. Not recently. I bought some horses when I came two years and a half ago.

Q. All sold out now?
A. Yes sir.

Q. Have you any dealings in horses since then?
A. A little occassionally, not to amount to anything.

Q.What relation is Mr. Davis to you?
A. None. Years before I went West, I worked for them in the meat business. I have always kept up correspondence since. It seems like home to me, and I like to stay there. Isaac C. Davis, his son, is in the meat business with him. The old man cannot see now, he has cancer. I stay there with them.

Q. Are you a married man?
A.No sir.

Q.Never have been?
A.No sir.

Q.This question you are not obliged to answer, unless you want to. Are you a man of some property?
A.Yes sir.

Q.Enough to live on without working?
A.Yes sir.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Thu May 25, 2006 11:49 am

Not much different than a former automobile dealer flying from Chicago to Cleveland and renting a car. Perhaps the train was quicker than driving a team to Fall River.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu May 25, 2006 2:55 pm

Angel @ Thu May 25, 2006 10:24 am wrote:
Audrey @ Thu May 25, 2006 11:15 am wrote:It is a very interesting thought... Lizzie being sent away and offers an additional motive if she overheard plans regarding something of this nature.

If this had been the case, do you think Emma may have reacted differently towards Lizzie and perhaps not been so steadfast in insisting her innocence?

Maybe she stood up for Lizzie because of her very guilt in feeling she could have prevented it. So, in a sense, she was either in denial over Lizzie's responsibility in this, or she felt that her lapse in judgment in leaving made her just as guilty, especially when she may have caused some of Lizzie's hatred for the step mother.

That is an interesting perspective Angel. That maybe Emma felt a little guilt about what happened that day. Could she really have believed if she had been there things might have been different? Or as Audrey said did she somehow keep herself from believing Lizzie was capable of doing something like that? Or maybe she just didn't care. I've never really known what to make of Emma and her protection of Lizzie. By this I mean why she defended her. Was it because she believed she was really innocent, or was there another reason? She defended her even after the split between them.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Thu May 25, 2006 3:11 pm

Emma raised Lizzie. According to Lizzie's testimony at the inquest, Lizzie went to Emma as she would to her mother. Lizzie was Emma's creation, for better or worse. Lizzie might have readily accepted Abby as a substitute mother, but Emma's spite always prevented that. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find out that Emma blamed herself for the murders, if she thought Lizzie committed them.

Lizzie was a spoiled brat who never grew up. She didn't have to. Everyone indulged her. She wasn't accountable for her actions. She never had to take responsibility for anything.

Maybe Andrew finally came to terms with this.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Thu May 25, 2006 3:27 pm

Consider how Emma and Lizzie lived after the trial. Did Emma don the mantle of "Queen Lizbeth" and live accordingly? Lizzie was living out her fantasy.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Thu May 25, 2006 3:48 pm

Yooper @ Thu May 25, 2006 12:49 pm wrote:Not much different than a former automobile dealer flying from Chicago to Cleveland and renting a car. Perhaps the train was quicker than driving a team to Fall River.

But was there any confirmation of this claim? Arnold Brown mentioned that John Morse, after the murder, went to the street where Hiram Harrington (? not sure of name, Andy's brother in law) had his stable.
Could it be that John Morse traveled with others who could not be named?

All this speculation is making me bored.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Thu May 25, 2006 4:02 pm

Which claim is that? The automobile dealer flew from Chicago to Cleveland on January 20, 1977. I was there.

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Thu May 25, 2006 4:22 pm

Allen @ Thu May 25, 2006 2:55 pm wrote:
Angel @ Thu May 25, 2006 10:24 am wrote:
Audrey @ Thu May 25, 2006 11:15 am wrote:It is a very interesting thought... Lizzie being sent away and offers an additional motive if she overheard plans regarding something of this nature.

If this had been the case, do you think Emma may have reacted differently towards Lizzie and perhaps not been so steadfast in insisting her innocence?

Maybe she stood up for Lizzie because of her very guilt in feeling she could have prevented it. So, in a sense, she was either in denial over Lizzie's responsibility in this, or she felt that her lapse in judgment in leaving made her just as guilty, especially when she may have caused some of Lizzie's hatred for the step mother.
That is an interesting perspective Angel. That maybe Emma felt a little guilt about what happened that day. Could she really have believed if she had been there things might have been different? Or as Audrey said did she somehow keep herself from believing Lizzie was capable of doing something like that? Or maybe she just didn't care. I've never really known what to make of Emma and her protection of Lizzie. By this I mean why she defended her. Was it because she believed she was really innocent, or was there another reason? She defended her even after the split between them.

I think Emma may have had some guilt as well, or knew more than she was willing to tell. I say this because I don't remember Emma asking any questions when she returned home. I would have grilled Bridget for information. She probably asked Lizzie a thousand questions, but that we will never know. But why didn't she ask Bridget anything? She was the only other person present. I have always found this to be a bit suspicious.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri May 26, 2006 4:08 am

There was information in the papers that Morse was still involved in horse trading and it has been thought he fudged his answers about horse dealings which testimony was posted here.

"Saturday, August 6, 1892 Page 1

IMPORTANT CLEW

Discovered in the Borden
Murder Mystery.

Strange Man Seen at the House
on Thursday.

Description Tallies With That of
Westport Horse Trader.

Evidence Also of the Man
Buying a Hatchet.

Corroborative Stories Told by
Several Parties.

Funeral of the Victims Attended
Only by Friends.

Miss Lizzie Retains Her Remarkable
Composure.

Strange Incident in Search for Missing
Weapon.

[Special Dispatch.]
Fall River, Aug. 6. ---
...Searching for information concerning Morse revealed the fact that he has recently been dealing in horses. On the way to New Bedford yesterday a Frenchman was found who told the following story: "Between 12:30 and 1 o'clock, Thursday, I was driving along in my wood wagon in front of the Merchants Mill. A strange man stopped me and climbed in. He seemed much agitated and asked me to drive him toward Westport, at the same time thrusting $4 into my hand. He took the reins and drove the horse himself. I have a wood yard on Jencks street and I told him I must stop there and get another horse, as the one we had was tired after a hard day's work. My wife was in the yard and did not like the appearance of the stranger. She positively refused to let me go to Westport with the man, so I gave him back his money and told him I could not assist him.

The description furnished by the Frenchman tallies with that given by the boy at the Pearl street station and that by the young man who saw the stranger Monday morning.

In Westport, at the head of the river, there is a camp of itinerant horse traders, who have been operating in this vicinity for some weeks. They go in and out of New Bedford continually, and Morse has been seen to associate with these people. The men came from the West, and it is thought are handling the horses reputed to be owned by Morse.

In Dartmouth it is learned that Morse reported himself to be a wealthy horse trader. He boarded from time to time in an unpretentious cottage within a mile of the horse traders' camp.

Searchers in Westport yesterday found the traders' camp and most of its occupants. Among them is a man who fits precisely the description of the man seen by the boy Thursday noon, by the young man Monday morning and by the Frenchman Thursday afternoon.

This man appeared to be the principal of the traders, and was not to be conversed with about trifling matters or on subjects other than those pertaining to the trading. The man admitted that he was from Westport, but refused to say what part.

He is thought to have the characteristics of the Gypsies and to have led a roving life not unlike them. Two New Bedford specials worked this clew all day and found that the gang had done more or less trading in their city, and also found a hardware store where a hatchet was purchased on Wednesday by one of the men from Westport. He paid $1.12 for the weapon and the clerk, who took some notice of the man, gives a description similar to those given by Fall River parties. This clew is being worked again to-day, and it is possible that the horse traders will be called upon to account for their whereabouts on Thursday.

There is more on this in the papers, where the theory was supposedly disproven that Morse had anything to do with these horses. There is also the story told by a Marshal (?) of going out to Westport and seeing the horses in a corral. (can't find it tho). So for a time it became the story of Morse and the horse.

Morse was out west when Lizzie was born. He returned in 1865, 1875 (when he stayed a year with the Bordens), 1877, 1885 and 1890 when he stayed around in Dartmouth etc.
He was gone much longer than he was in Fall River. Morse doesn't strike me as very interested in his niece Lizzie- he doesn't seem, in my opinion, as a man who knows about girls.
My impression is that another female would know Lizzie better than anyone, tho it sounds like Uncle Hiram knew Lizzie pretty well if we believe his assessment of her character. Hiram lived in town. I think Alice probably knew Lizzie pretty well, and of course Emma.

Emma went away with Lizzie, but she went farther. Lizzie seems to have decided to return home. That return, since the girls were not together, may have been impromtu on Lizzie's part. Emma may not have expected it, but did not change her plans when she found Lizzie had returned home. They seemed to have kept in close touch-at least it seems that Lizzie wrote Emma a few times while they were parted.

I don't discount any of the surmises of the relationship between these two sisters, but personally I don't see what in Lizzie could have inspired Uncle Morse to know her better than anyone. Sorry. He's just a rough western man to me who dropped into Lizzie's life at 10 year and 5 year intervals.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri May 26, 2006 12:17 pm

Alice didn't even know about the 'daylight' robbery until the night before the murders, when I think Lizzie brought it up because the story suited her needs. Something in Morse inspired Emma to call him a very dear uncle, and to correspond with him on a regular basis, and to allow him to pick her up to go out and about with him riding. There was also another female present who was no relation to him. I don't think he was such a rough old man.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri May 26, 2006 12:50 pm

Inquest testimony of Emma L. Borden page 1570:

Q. Miss Russell was a friend of Lizzie's, was she not?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. An intimate friend?
A. No, sir.

Q. A calling friend?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. One that came to see her quite fairly often?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. One that she went to see quite fairly often?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. On excellent terms?
A. On good terms.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri May 26, 2006 12:56 pm

Smudgeman @ Thu May 25, 2006 4:22 pm wrote: I think Emma may have had some guilt as well, or knew more than she was willing to tell. I say this because I don't remember Emma asking any questions when she returned home. I would have grilled Bridget for information. She probably asked Lizzie a thousand questions, but that we will never know. But why didn't she ask Bridget anything? She was the only other person present. I have always found this to be a bit suspicious.

That's a good point you make about Emma not asking Bridget more questions. If it was me I would've grilled her as well. Emma doesn't seem to have asked many questions at all about what happened.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Fri May 26, 2006 1:20 pm

There may have been things Emma didn't want to know for certain. I remember reading a bumber sticker "Denial is not a river in Egypt".

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat May 27, 2006 2:23 am

Angel @ Thu May 25, 2006 11:53 am wrote:I forget- when did the shoplifting thing (of the pictures) occur? And when did she stop seeing Nance?

Our Sherry wrote an article in The Hatchet, "Lizzie and the Tilden-Thurber Incident," Vol. 2, Issue 4, pages 20-28. The "Incident" happened in February, 1897.

It's not sure when Nance & Lizbeth stopped seeing each other- probably approximately 1905. They might have been chums 1904-1905. Nance says they were ships that pass in the night, yet in the *Emma Interview* of 1913, Emma claims her sister and Nance are still friends, although the sisters supposedly didn't see each other or speak anymore. One wonders how Emma knew this.
Nance traveled the world and would be gone months and months at a time.

DWilly · Post by **DWilly** » Sat May 27, 2006 10:23 am

Angel @ Thu May 25, 2006 11:53 am wrote:... And when did she stop seeing Nance?

No one knows for sure when or if Lizzie stopped seeing Nance. The thing you have to keep in mind is if their relationship was lesbian then both women would have kept it as much a secret as possible. Back in 1905, the idea of "coming out" didn't really happen. People kept something like that as hidden as possible. They'd lie, have fake marriages etc. Despite this both Lizzie and Nance were plageud by rumors of lesbianism.

What I'd like to know is why did Lizzie give her chauffeur Ernest Terry $2,500 bucks right before she died? Possibly letters and or photos from Nance? Maybe some other things from a few other women/actresses? I keep wondering if maybe in a few years some relative of Terry will come forward with a letter to sell on ebay.