Andrew's arrival

[Angel]

Well, in Lizzie's case, I think that the problems went so deep with her family that it totally controlled her whole life. After the deaths she may have been so relieved to find that she was for the first time in charge of her own destiny that nothing else that would come along could be as significant. She was no longer a cornered rat, so to speak. She may have had problems after that in her life, but she now had some power to do something about them or handle them in a different way.

[RayS]

I've read a number of books on this case. Most say there was a heat wave that week (but no writer except Porter was actually there; his remarks should trump anyone else's). One said the heat wave had just ended. Surely no one is going to believe a newspaper story that they haven't read? I'm not contradicting Rebello, but we all know about human error.

The importance of this (not stated anywhere) is that crimes of violence generally escalate in HOT weather. You can look at statistics on variations from the Canadian border down to the Gulf Coast. Cities are hotter that rural place (and other differences).

Does the temperature really play a part in this crime? Probably not.

[Kat]

Well, in Lizzie's case, I think that the problems went so deep with her family that it totally controlled her whole life. After the deaths she may have been so relieved to find that she was for the first time in charge of her own destiny that nothing else that would come along could be as significant. She was no longer a cornered rat, so to speak. She may have had problems after that in her life, but she now had some power to do something about them or handle them in a different way.

Thanks.
Well, I'm thinking at the least impulse control problems? I guess if Lizzie was a kleptomaniac that might tend to point towrds that?
What about paranoia? I really am asking you as an expert, or someone with experience.

[Allen]

The importance of this (not stated anywhere) is that crimes of violence generally escalate in HOT weather. You can look at statistics on variations from the Canadian border down to the Gulf Coast. Cities are hotter that rural place (and other differences).

This is actually very true. We discuss the issue of crime and climate in class pretty often. Crime rates are indeed higher in warmer months. My Professor says that while crime does tend to escalate during the season when the temperatures are hotter, namely summer, it may not be just the increase in temperature that contributes to the increase in rate. It could be the major contributing factor, but not the only one that should be taken into account. People tend to be outside more in summer months, parties and drinking going on, etc...Althought studies have shown people are more quick tempered, less able to deal with stress, and have a greater tendency to become belligerent during hot weather.

To illustrate his point my Professor has a 'theory' he likes to use on each and every class. I've heard it at least a dozen times in different classes. It's the 'ice cream' theory. He said that we must be careful to weigh all the factors that can cause the increase before coming to a conclusion, not just one. Otherwise we could say that ice cream sales are usually at thier peak in the summer months. More ice cream is sold in the summer time, more murders occur in the summer? AHA Ice cream must cause people to want to commit murder! When the idea of crime and heat came up, I automatically thought of the 'ice cream' theory.

[Shelley]

The weather should be easy to check- records were kept- and not just reported in the daily paper. Rebello did check several sources. I believe it is in his book. We'll have an answer by Monday. I am sticking with high 70's. I think humidity may have been the oppressive factor.

[doug65oh]

Most notably, as recently as 1993, some 101 years after the murders, Borden scholar Edward Thibault finally put to rest the "hot day myth" with his groundbreaking essay in the Lizzie Borden Quarterly entitled "That Sticky Weather Issue." After reviewing various sources and court documents regarding the temperature on 4 August 1892, Thibault concluded that while there was a heat wave the week before the murders, the temperatures on the day of the murders were not higher than 80 degrees!

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/ResourcesPage.htm

Sound about right, does it?

[Shelley]

Yes- and from the mouth of Eddie, "Mr. Lizzie" himself. I am pretty sure Rebello says 78 for the 11 a.m. murder. Of course with all those clothes on, they must have felt warmer! The effects of food-poisoning do include chills. Maybe Andrew was still feeling the nausea and chills effects of whatever was in that food!

He looks quite bundled up and with the windows closed too. Where have I heard Lizzie offered to cover him with the afghan? I loved what Hiram H. had to say about the doting Lizzie's daughterly love and solicitousness on Andrew's behalf! She was clearly not his favorite gal.

[doug65oh]

ayup...Uncle Hiram was quite a character, to say the least! The thing is, even despite his rather jaundiced view, what he presents makes an odd bit of sense.

If kill the golden goose you must,
Creep silent, and preserve her trust.

That sort of thing...

[Kat]

Is that kind of increased crime statistic for North America, or does it include naturally hot areas say, around the equator?
Meaning- does it have more effect on populations who we might tend to think are less used to it?

[Allen]

The weather should be easy to check- records were kept- and not just reported in the daily paper. Rebello did check several sources. I believe it is in his book. We'll have an answer by Monday. I am sticking with high 70's. I think humidity may have been the oppressive factor.

We discussed just this at some length in this thread. I agree, as I did then, humidity is probably what made the day so unbareable. I believe somewhere in this thread Kat spoke with Mr. Rebello about this subject and posted his replies.

viewtopic.php?t=1150&highlight=humidity

[Allen]

Kat @ Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:26 pm wrote:
It's going to be 81 tomorrow, here. I sit outside when it's hot.

BTW: the stats for violent crime rising with each degree- is that in America or does it include the Southern Hemisphere, or the Equator areas? Do they have lots of violent crime, or is the rising heat only affecting peoples who are not used to it?

Allen

It was a study done in the United States, and it does include the entire United States. This study was done because the researchers also wanted to estimate what effect global warming may have on crime rates.
Interestingly enough the Southern states, which on average stay warmer all the year round, already have a higher crime rate than the rest of the country. In fact, it has been estimated at different points in the past that some of our Southern states had some of the highest crime rates in the world.


http://www.journaltimes.com/articles/20 ... 607449.txt

http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb98/global.html

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/region.htm

viewtopic.php?t=1150&postdays=0&postord ... &&start=75

[Allen]

I found it. Sorry if I am not doing these quotes correctly. I'm a little sleepy, and that makes me a little sloppy also. I am typing with one eye open and one eye shut.

Kat

I'm giving information and wondering along with you all as well.
I figured that since it was a traumatic day- I would take that into account. Witnesses who are trumatised are not especially reliable as we all know. Also these were not sophisticated people. If you speak to the ice cream man and he barely has English and by 1893 everyone is on the *hot* boat- that can explain his testimony. I'm not ruling out anyone's opinion back then. I still think there is a possibility that the thought was planted and people went with it. It's good strategy on the part of the state.
Other than that, I was talking to Len Rebello and asked him about living in Fall River explicitly to do with summer and heat and humidity.
(I try to find out things from every source I can). My mind is not made up on anything. I deal in possibilities, because I wasn't there.
He said last week is a good example of hot. He said it was about 72 degrees but it was so humid that if you just turned around the sweat would pour off you. That there are hills and valleys in Fall River and those valleys can collect the *heat* and just seem stifling. It's the humidity. I asked if my 95 degrees here with 95 degree humidity wasn't the same as anywhere else's 95 degrees and 95 % humidity and he said no. Now I may not understand this, but he talked about it being flat here (he's been to Florida) and hilly in Fall River. And so we might get breezes (we are a peninsula) with those same temps and it not be so hot but if you are in a valley in Fall River with no breeze same temps and humidity it's going to seem hotter. I asked him if he meant they feel the humidity more in a valley location and if so, in 1892, why didn't the word *humidity* make it into any of the testimony? I mean, they had it- they could measure it. He said up there they just say it's hot- they don't bring up the humidity.
So that's my other source for you all.

viewtopic.php?t=1150&postdays=0&postord ... &&start=25


Kat

There is a message on my answering machine today, July 6th.
It is a Weather Report from Fall River, by Leonard Rebello:

"It is 10:15 in Fall River and this is a day that is 73,74 degrees And Humid.
If you move- you Sweat.
This is one of those days.
I just thought I would let you know."

--underlined is where he put emphasis.
Thanks Len for the weather report- eyewitness!

viewtopic.php?t=1150&postdays=0&postord ... &&start=50

[Airmid]

When talking about the weather, this quote comes to mind:

Bridget, Trial p. 198:
Q What day had you done your washing that week?
A Monday.
Q What day had you done the drying of your clothes?
A Monday, if it was pleasant.
Q I mean this particular week. Monday was the regular washing day. Did you wash on Monday, the week of Mr. Borden's death?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you dry your clothes Monday?
A No, sir.
Q On what day did you dry your clothes?
A Tuesday.

So at least we know monday was a rainy day!

Airmid.

[Kat]

Thanks for finding that thread! I'm not good at that.


The reason I asked this a second time, was my intent was to find out what your Professor had to say to my question, rather than the link to the info online. I think his answer would be interesting.
Thanks again, tho!

Is that kind of increased crime statistic for North America, or does it include naturally hot areas say, around the equator?
Meaning- does it have more effect on populations who we might tend to think are less used to it?

[snokkums]

When Andrew arrived home after finishing his business on Thursday, he is seen by Mrs. Kelly coming around the side of the house and going to the front door. Is it fair to assume that he may have tried the back door only to find it hooked (p. 233, Trial, Bridget)? If so, and further, if Lizzie was in the kitchen reading rather than upstairs, why didn't she let Andrew in the back door? Why didn't Bridget see Lizzie in the kitchen perhaps five minutes earlier than Andrew's arrival when she brought in her window washing implements?

Maybe Lizzie wasn't where she said she was after all.After all she lied abput evertyting else.

Either she was lying or she really didn't remember where she was at. Or she got confused Sometimes the police can be very hard when questioning someone. But I think she was lying all along because she was trying to cover her tracks and throw the police off.

This has been my belief all along snokkums.

[Angel]

[quote="Kat @ Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:24 pm
Well, I'm thinking at the least impulse control problems? I guess if Lizzie was a kleptomaniac that might tend to point towrds that?
What about paranoia? I really am asking you as an expert, or someone with experience.[/quote]

Kleptomania is an impulse control disorder. Some clinicians say that it is part of the obsessive-compulsive spectrum of disorders or as variant of mood disorders, such as depression. Intermittent explosive disorder could have been one of Lizzie's problems. It sounds like others have suggested that about her mother.

[Kat]

Does the "explosive" disorder manifest in the way it sounds? Like an instant bomb and then there is surcease?
Mounting paranoia, then explosive acting out:
That sounds like it could fit, but not for 2 murders.
I could see that for Abby but not for Andrew.

It could also fit why Emma left her sister. They could have been building toward a split over a small amount of time if Lizzie was getting into an explosive syndrome.

[Shelley]

The Today show had a piece on this intermittent anger disorder (IAD) a couple of weeks ago. Road rage is one manifestation of it. Here is a good link all about it- and who has not seen someone, under stress absolutely flip out over some trivial thing? Sometimes now I hear "going postal" used to mean erratic and dangerous behavior after so many post office shootings. Scary stuff. Could Lizzie have had something like this- maybe so. It was no doubt called something quite different back then.
http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20060610/fob4.asp

[Angel]

Mounting paranoia, then explosive acting out:
That sounds like it could fit, but not for 2 murders.
I could see that for Abby but not for Andrew.
It could also fit why Emma left her sister. They could have been building toward a split over a small amount of time if Lizzie was getting into an explosive syndrome.

I feel that's what could easily have happened with Abby. However, like I"ve said in the past, I think Andrew came home too early for Lizzie to get out of the house and establish an alibi, so she felt cornered enough to feel she had to get rid of him too for her own survival.
It would be very conceivable to think that is why Emma felt she had to get out. Who will ever know?

[RayS]

Is that kind of increased crime statistic for North America, or does it include naturally hot areas say, around the equator?
Meaning- does it have more effect on populations who we might tend to think are less used to it?

I read that where it is really hot, like the equator, people are more sluggish or torpid(?) and crime goes down again. Bell-shaped curve?
Richard H. Dana's book "Two Years Before the Mast" made that comment about New Englanders who had lived for years in California. The "laid back" temperament, due to parasites?