Shelley @ Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:06 am wrote:"Mrs. Buffington, whose man called the agent across the street who informed the police. "
I never heard that before. Who is Mrs. Buffinton?
Mrs. Buffington was Mrs.Churchill's mother, who also lived in the home at the time.
The Witness Statements page 8 from the notes of Doherty and Harrington:
Mrs. Churchill left her house at about 11 A. M., and returned between 11.15 and 11.20. While away her mother, Mrs. Buffington, was in the dining room off the kitchen, wheeling to and fro a baby carriage which contained a sick baby; and although the windows were opened, she heard no cries.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Exactly right- but it was Mrs. Churchill who spoke to Tom Bowles, was overheard by Cunningham who was a "stringer" for the local press who went down to the paint store to call the papers, then police.
Yooper @ Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:32 am wrote:I agree, calling out to Bridget was an act of very intense faith or stupidity. If Lizzie was innocent, she didn't know who would come down the stairs, or up the basement stairs for that matter. Lizzie said she thought she heard Abby return and Abby didn't come running as a result of her (Lizzie's) hollering for Bridget. Why would an innocent person presume that anyone left alive in the house was also innocent?
Have you answered your own question?
Lizzie may have acted out of surprise and panic, calling the one person she expected to be alive. We know she talked to Mrs. Churchill in the Buffington house, whose man called the agent across the street who informed the police.
You should make a timeline to correlate everyone's activies, not make assumptions. Corrected according to advice.
Wasn't Mrs Churchill the daughter of Mrs Buffington, the wife of the former mayor?
My point was this:
Andrew is dead. Lizzie thought she heard Abby return, Abby does not respond to Lizzie's calling to Bridget. If Lizzie was innocent, how would she know that Bridget didn't commit the murders?
If I was Lizzie and if I didn't commit the murders, I would assume anyone other than myself left alive in the house was possibly the murderer. I would certainly not presume that anyone alive in the house, other than myself, was innocent/
Yooper @ Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:32 am wrote:I agree, calling out to Bridget was an act of very intense faith or stupidity. If Lizzie was innocent, she didn't know who would come down the stairs, or up the basement stairs for that matter. Lizzie said she thought she heard Abby return and Abby didn't come running as a result of her (Lizzie's) hollering for Bridget. Why would an innocent person presume that anyone left alive in the house was also innocent?
Have you answered your own question?
Lizzie may have acted out of surprise and panic, calling the one person she expected to be alive. We know she talked to Mrs. Churchill in the Buffington house, whose man called the agent across the street who informed the police.
You should make a timeline to correlate everyone's activies, not make assumptions. Corrected according to advice.
Wasn't Mrs Churchill the daughter of Mrs Buffington, the wife of the former mayor?
My point was this:
Andrew is dead. Lizzie thought she heard Abby return, Abby does not respond to Lizzie's calling to Bridget. If Lizzie was innocent, how would she know that Bridget didn't commit the murders?
If I was Lizzie and if I didn't commit the murders, I would assume anyone other than myself left alive in the house was possibly the murderer. I would certainly not presume that anyone alive in the house, other than myself, was innocent/
I think it is obvious that Lizzie saw the Secret Visitor leave, hence knew it was time to go back in. Calling for Bridget was a way to poll the living.
The story about hearing Abby return was much later (11:45am?), when there were other people in the house. I think this means Lizzie thought Abby had gone out, and would return for the noon meal.
There would be no need to suspect Bridget on the 3rd floor unless Lizzie had seen no one else.
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
I'll have to whip out the witness statements, but I think it was when Bridget asked if she should go to find Abby if Lizzie would tell her where, when Lizzie said she thought she heard her come in.
Okay here it is:
Bridget " When I returned from Miss Russell's I asked Lizzie if I would go to Mrs. Whitehead's to see if Mrs. Borden was there. It was then Lizzie said "No, I think I heard her come in."
Very interesting that Bridget did not know where Whiteheads lived. Gives support to the fact that Sarah Whitehead, as she said, did not visit often at 92 Second and not when the girls were there.
Lizzie told Mrs. Churchill the same thing. One of the first things Mrs. Churchill said to Lizzie was (substantially) "where is Abby?". I have to wonder when Lizzie heard Abby return after having told Andrew that Abby was out. Bridget did not hear Abby return while she was downstairs and Lizzie went to the barn when Bridget went to her room. When did Lizzie actually hear Abby return?
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
If Lizzie did kill Abby it seems like she would have been better off telling people that she thought Abby was still out and unaware of Abby movements completely...
Yooper @ Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:24 am wrote:Lizzie told Mrs. Churchill the same thing. One of the first things Mrs. Churchill said to Lizzie was (substantially) "where is Abby?". I have to wonder when Lizzie heard Abby return after having told Andrew that Abby was out. Bridget did not hear Abby return while she was downstairs and Lizzie went to the barn when Bridget went to her room. When did Lizzie actually hear Abby return?
There was no time for that to have happened. Lizzie was lying.
I get the impression from reading the testimonies that the conversation Bridget tells must have happened when Alice and Mrs. Churchill were there - and the police. She may have been moved to the little daybed in the dining room by that point.
When Bowen returns from sending the telegram Abby had been found so it had to have been before he left the house.
Yes, I always wondered why she said anything. It may have been better to have let the police just find Abby- although that may have taken a little longer. And I suppose it was a relief to just get it over, especially if you had been in the house with the corpse since 9 that morning. It also gives the idea that Lizzie thought Abby was alive, and made it seem only a short time ago she heard her-thus linking the two murders closer in time.
Lizzie's response to Bridget's question concerning Abby's whereabouts took place with other women present, probably Alice Russell, Mrs. Bowen, and Mrs. Churchill, and I think it took place in the kitchen. It's odd that Lizzie never mentioned this to the police. Mrs. Churchill's witness statement (August 8th?) where she is concerned about having to "tell all" implies that she thinks there is somethiing in her statement which was very incriminating. I wonder what that might be.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
Oh yes- I forgot Phebe Bowen. I would guestimate it must have been sometime between 11:20-30 when the topic of Abby was brought up- and may have been in the kitchen. We don't know how long Lizzie was in that room. I expect the women were trying to make her more comfortable (and cooler) in the diningroom on the daybed. I wonder if the thing that Mrs. Churchill saw but would not tell about was in the kitchen, diningroom or upstairs guestroom?
I wonder if Mrs. Churchill was referring to an object she had seen or something which someone did or said. If it was an object, what would it be? She must have been witholding evidence at the trial.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
Good point. Well, I rather think more than one person was withholding things they might have said. There seemed to be a reluctance on the part of several friends of the family and of Lizzie's to say any more than they absolutely had to, and if they were not asked specifically, did not volunteer.
Yooper @ Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:24 am wrote:Lizzie told Mrs. Churchill the same thing. One of the first things Mrs. Churchill said to Lizzie was (substantially) "where is Abby?". I have to wonder when Lizzie heard Abby return after having told Andrew that Abby was out. Bridget did not hear Abby return while she was downstairs and Lizzie went to the barn when Bridget went to her room. When did Lizzie actually hear Abby return?
There was no time for that to have happened. Lizzie was lying.
Saying she thought she heard Abby returning is NOT A LIE!!! Can you read her mind? With all those policemen looking and searching through the house she could have mistaken footsteps on the back stairs for Abby.
Ever notice how you can distinguish the footprints of various members in your family when you are in the cellar?
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
I've always wondered if Lizzie had done the deed, why didn't she make more of an effort to make the crime scene look as though someone had broken into the house, struggled with Abby and Andrew and rummaged through the rooms they were in. It wouldn't have taken much more time to throw some things around or put things out of place quietly.
Why did she leave things so relatively clean and neat aside from Abby's and Andrew's heads?
Shelley @ Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:21 pm wrote:I'll have to whip out the witness statements, but I think it was when Bridget asked if she should go to find Abby if Lizzie would tell her where, when Lizzie said she thought she heard her come in.
Okay here it is:
Bridget " When I returned from Miss Russell's I asked Lizzie if I would go to Mrs. Whitehead's to see if Mrs. Borden was there. It was then Lizzie said "No, I think I heard her come in."
Very interesting that Bridget did not know where Whiteheads lived. Gives support to the fact that Sarah Whitehead, as she said, did not visit often at 92 Second and not when the girls were there.
One sad fact is that witness statements are not always 1000% accurate.
Maybe Bridget confused the time element, especially if she didn't know where the Whiteheads lived.
BUT most of all, it appears that Bridget did know of the note beforehand since she asked about searching for Abby.
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
Bridget said she overheard Lizzie telling Andrew that Abbie had had a note, when he returned. So she did *know* of a note "beforehand," but from the mouth of Lizzie around 10:45 a.m.
Page 32 of Bridgets trial testamony.......Q. Did she say anything to you, or you to her, while you were doing that, and she was doing what you discribe? A. She said "Maggie, are you going out this afternoon?" I said "I don't know, I might and I might not: I don't feel very well." She says "If you go out, be sure and lock the door, for Mrs. Borden has gone out on a sick call, and I might go out too." Says I "Miss Lizzie who is sick?" "I don't know, she had a note this morning: It must be in town"
Kat @ Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:23 am wrote:Bridget said she overheard Lizzie telling Andrew that Abbie had had a note, when he returned. So she did *know* of a note "beforehand," but from the mouth of Lizzie around 10:45 a.m.
Do we have any idea when that note came? When Uncle John was there?
Didn't Brown say that the note was to draw Abby away from the house for that personal meeting? If Andy didn't discuss it, he either knew of the reason, or, didn't care.
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
The note might well have been a ploy to prevent Andrew from discovering Abby's body. It may have been made up on the spot. If Andrew thought Abby was out, he wouldn't try to find her.
I think this note story was a major reason for Bridget's hasty retreat from the Borden household after the murders. Bridget had overheard the conversation between Lizzie and Andrew about the note. She heard Lizzie say that she thought she heard Abby return. Bridget heard Lizzie upstairs when Andrew returned. I think she finally realized how fortunate she was in having decided to lie down in her room when she did. It could well have been a triple murder.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
Yooper @ Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:47 am wrote:Assuming Lizzie was guilty, what prevented her from murdering Bridget when she came down the stairs?
Lizzie had no reason to murder Bridget. She had not been a threat to her and did not invoke any rage like her parents may have done. The crimes were caused by passion and fury.
Yooper @ Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:47 am wrote:Assuming Lizzie was guilty, what prevented her from murdering Bridget when she came down the stairs?
Lizzie had no reason to murder Bridget. She had not been a threat to her and did not invoke any rage like her parents may have done. The crimes were caused by passion and fury.
If Lizzie was guilty, she would need a member of a minority and serving girl to take blame on as a 'patsy'. SHE DID NOT!!!
You might as well argue that Bridget did it, and left Lizzie alive to take the blame! Would anyone believe that?
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
Yooper @ Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:43 pm wrote:The note might well have been a ploy to prevent Andrew from discovering Abby's body. It may have been made up on the spot. If Andrew thought Abby was out, he wouldn't try to find her.
I think this note story was a major reason for Bridget's hasty retreat from the Borden household after the murders. Bridget had overheard the conversation between Lizzie and Andrew about the note. She heard Lizzie say that she thought she heard Abby return. Bridget heard Lizzie upstairs when Andrew returned. I think she finally realized how fortunate she was in having decided to lie down in her room when she did. It could well have been a triple murder.
I wasn't surprised that Bridget didn't want to spend the night there, actually I'm surprised that anyone would spend the night there. How could you possibly sleep? the odds of the murderer returning are slim to none, with or without the police being there.....two people were brutaly murdered. that alone would have me packing! However, Bridget did return to work for a few days after that, so she wasn't afraid during the day.
