If Abby Had Only ...

[RayS]

How about this explanation, based on what I know.
The door was shut when Lizzie went up, the Secret Visitor was there and didn't want anyone looking in.
Later, when the Visitor left the room and went downstairs to meet Andy he left it open. Presumably Lizzie went out in the backyard, Bridget was now in her room.

Things change in the real world. An open door can be shut, and a shut door can be left open.

The exasperating difficulty about this mystery is that we can never know for sure. If we did, it would not be a mystery.

[Shelley]

And on that, we can agree whole-heartedly.

[RayS]

I guess you are talking to me, Ray? No, I do not agree. And that should be no surprise either. I do not espouse Brown's theory, secret visitors, strange characters, peculiar smells , the reliability of Ellen's tale, or illegitimate sons and confiding unknown midwives as the solution to this puzzle. That is why you do not see me posting away on any of the Brown theory threads. I am content for you to hold forth full tilt over there with people who like to discuss that particular theory, and I will never foist any of my opinions and views in that area, in fact you will never see me there at all- no interest and nothing to add, although I have taken the time to read the book. That now having been said, we both know exactly where we are-yes?
And here is a smiley as all of the above is not being said with a malicious tone.

As to Lizzie,of course she did not sound an alarm-why would she if she was the murderer?
...

HOW can you resist the temptation? If you don't agree, can you point out any known facts that contradict my statements?

[Shelley]

How can I resist temptation? Oh, it is not hard. If I take the time to patiently address your statements, you simply say you have not got the time to read the response. So waste of time for me.

Secondly, I will only get the usual Brown Symphony in one note anyway.

And thirdly, it is like conversing with a brick wall, albeit a kinder brick wall lately.

And finally, unless one reads the primary source documents, quoting factual testimonies, statements, trial transcripts, etc., -the FACTS, not theories, it is hard to debate or discuss anything intelligently.

[snokkums]

How about this explanation, based on what I know.
The door was shut when Lizzie went up, the Secret Visitor was there and didn't want anyone looking in.
Later, when the Visitor left the room and went downstairs to meet Andy he left it open. Presumably Lizzie went out in the backyard, Bridget was now in her room.

Things change in the real world. An open door can be shut, and a shut door can be left open.

The exasperating difficulty about this mystery is that we can never know for sure. If we did, it would not be a mystery.

My only problem with that is that the secret visitor would have known that Lizzie was about. So why didn't the killer get LIzzie too just to be on the safe side?

[DWilly]

How about this explanation, based on what I know.
The door was shut when Lizzie went up, the Secret Visitor was there and didn't want anyone looking in.
Later, when the Visitor left the room and went downstairs to meet Andy he left it open. Presumably Lizzie went out in the backyard, Bridget was now in her room.

Things change in the real world. An open door can be shut, and a shut door can be left open.

The exasperating difficulty about this mystery is that we can never know for sure. If we did, it would not be a mystery.

We know Lizzie was in the house because both she and Bridget put her there. We know Bridget was in the house because she testified to that and Lizzie also puts her there. We do not know that a "Secret Visitor" was there. Given the fact that no one, as far as I know, ever testified to saying there was a "Secret Visitor I think you can only speculate to someone else being inside the house.

[Kat]

Lizzie first says she was in the kitchen.
After a while she says she was on the stairs.

Then she reverts to saying she was in the kitchen. The fact that she started with the story of being in the kitchen, means she changed her story to being on the stairs.
Then changed back to what she said originally.

As for Lizzie going up twice, that has never come up. There is no testimony from anyone that she did that.
If we leave out Bridget, and that slop pail which we don't know much about- then we can just look at what Lizzie did say. I like to imagine the day as Lizzie told it- in this instance not comparing statements.

Where are you getting this trip back up stairs with the pail from, Shelley?
A pail with menstrual cloths was found in the cellar, so that at least was not brought back up by Lizzie.
We have the overnight pail going down cellar in the dark of the evening of Thursday. Anything else?

[Allen]

I thought Shelley was referring to Lizzie's slop pail. Maybe I'm wrong. But they were usually kept under the beds in each bedroom for use by the occupant. If Lizzie brought hers down that morning as Bridget says, she had to have taken it back up to her room at sometime during the day else how could she have been seen carrying it back down again later that night?

[Harry]

It boils down as to who you believe, Bridget or Lizzie. I tend to believe Bridget more than Lizzie and that Lizzie had to be upstairs at the time her father came home for several reasons.

1. Bridget said she heard a laugh from upstairs. It was either Lizzie or someone else. Lizzie had a peculiar laugh, at least according to de Mille, and if true, Bridget would know her laugh. (de Mille, page 27):

"... She had had a good deal of dental work done and there was a gleam of gold when she smiled. She opened her mouth wide when she laughed, and her laugh was memorable---unexpected, mirthless, and very loud. At school it had unnerved her classmates. ..."

2. Bridget said Lizzie came from the front of the house when she entered the room to see her father. (Bridget, trial 235+):

Q. And what did you continue to do?
A. I was washing my windows. I went out into the kitchen after something; I see the man sitting on the lounge, and the chair at the head of the lounge.
Q. In the dining room?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did any one else appear at that time?
A. Miss Lizzie came down stairs, probably five minutes---I couldn't tell exactly the time; she came down through the entry, the front entry, into the dining room, I suppose to her father.
Q. And in going to the dining room did she have to go through the sitting room in which you were?
A. Yes, sir."

3. I believe that Andrew's normal way of entering and leaving the house was by the side door. If he tried that when he returned, and only the screen door was closed, why wouldn't Lizzie, if she was in the kitchen or dining room have heard him and let him in?

[Shelley]

That's how I see it too, Harry.

Regarding the pail, I meant when Lizzie went down the cellar with her night pail (chamber pot or slop jar) that morning when she got up, did she not run into Bridget coming in the side door from the barn, carrying a brush and pail? I would imagine this was just after Bridget had gotten sick in the back yard, and had gone to the barn to get window-washing equipment. I am trying to recall where I read Bridget was coming in with a brush and pail.

[RayS]

How about this explanation, based on what I know.
The door was shut when Lizzie went up, the Secret Visitor was there and didn't want anyone looking in.
Later, when the Visitor left the room and went downstairs to meet Andy he left it open. Presumably Lizzie went out in the backyard, Bridget was now in her room.

Things change in the real world. An open door can be shut, and a shut door can be left open.

The exasperating difficulty about this mystery is that we can never know for sure. If we did, it would not be a mystery.

We know Lizzie was in the house because both she and Bridget put her there. We know Bridget was in the house because she testified to that and Lizzie also puts her there. We do not know that a "Secret Visitor" was there. Given the fact that no one, as far as I know, ever testified to saying there was a "Secret Visitor I think you can only speculate to someone else being inside the house.

I think the correct explanation is that the presence of an Intruder is inferred by the lack of bloodstains on Lizzie and Bridget, and no murder weapon in the house.
Surely this is a simpler explanation than "it was hidden so the numerous police searches couldn't find it"?

[RayS]

It boils down as to who you believe, Bridget or Lizzie. I tend to believe Bridget more than Lizzie and that Lizzie had to be upstairs at the time her father came home for several reasons.

1. Bridget said she heard a laugh from upstairs. It was either Lizzie or someone else. Lizzie had a peculiar laugh, at least according to de Mille, and if true, Bridget would know her laugh. (de Mille, page 27):

"... She had had a good deal of dental work done and there was a gleam of gold when she smiled. She opened her mouth wide when she laughed, and her laugh was memorable---unexpected, mirthless, and very loud. At school it had unnerved her classmates. ..."

2. Bridget said Lizzie came from the front of the house when she entered the room to see her father. (Bridget, trial 235+):

Q. And what did you continue to do?
A. I was washing my windows. I went out into the kitchen after something; I see the man sitting on the lounge, and the chair at the head of the lounge.
Q. In the dining room?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did any one else appear at that time?
A. Miss Lizzie came down stairs, probably five minutes---I couldn't tell exactly the time; she came down through the entry, the front entry, into the dining room, I suppose to her father.
Q. And in going to the dining room did she have to go through the sitting room in which you were?
A. Yes, sir."

3. I believe that Andrew's normal way of entering and leaving the house was by the side door. If he tried that when he returned, and only the screen door was closed, why wouldn't Lizzie, if she was in the kitchen or dining room have heard him and let him in?

3. Not if the door was closed and Lizzie was engrossed in her reading. Besides, it was the maid's job. "Answer the door? Its not my job."
2. Isn't specific to me, not enought info. The front door opened onto the stairway. "From the front" could be either the DR or the sitting room, not the parlor. IMO [But see the later posts.]
1. "She heard a laugh from upstairs" seems to say Bridget didn't recognize it, else she would have said "she heard Lizzie laugh from upstairs". Not a very strong argument, but recall how people speak.

Surprise, I stll believe in Brown's theory.

[Shelley]

I am waiting for Arnold Brown to infiltrate the Victorian Christmas thread and give us his sugar cookie recipe next.

"From the front" does not include the diningroom, by the way. If you ever looked at a chart of the house or any of the zillion photographs I have posted about the house you can see the parlor IS the most western, front room of the entire house on the first floor.
The only other room which opens directly from the front entry hall is the sitting room, which technically is sandwiched in the middle of the house between the kitchen and front entry hall and stairwell. The diningroom is not a front room, being sandwiched also in the middle of the house between the parlor and the back hall, back staircase and sinkroom.

As far as a laugh being heard, it was said Lizzie had a distinctive laugh, and I will have to look to see if Bridget actually DID say "Lizzie" and not "her". By 10:45 Abby was long past laughing and there were no other women in the house.

[RayS]

Yes, I'm operating from memory here. I will accept the layout in Kent's book, etc. The front entryway led to the sitting room.
I remembered that the parlor also opened onto the front entryway.

If my memory was wrong please forgive me. It may be from the medicine the Dr. prescribed to me, not from consciousness of guilt.
PS
Whatever Bridget said as the time, could it have been "improved" for the trial? Just tell me as you remember it, or from a handy source.

I will accept either Kent or Brown as reliable sources. WHO has the time or interest for the Trial Transcript? We expect the authors to faithfully tell what happened there.

[DWilly]

How about this explanation, based on what I know.
The door was shut when Lizzie went up, the Secret Visitor was there and didn't want anyone looking in.
Later, when the Visitor left the room and went downstairs to meet Andy he left it open. Presumably Lizzie went out in the backyard, Bridget was now in her room.

Things change in the real world. An open door can be shut, and a shut door can be left open.

The exasperating difficulty about this mystery is that we can never know for sure. If we did, it would not be a mystery.

We know Lizzie was in the house because both she and Bridget put her there. We know Bridget was in the house because she testified to that and Lizzie also puts her there. We do not know that a "Secret Visitor" was there. Given the fact that no one, as far as I know, ever testified to saying there was a "Secret Visitor I think you can only speculate to someone else being inside the house.

I think the correct explanation is that the presence of an Intruder is inferred by the lack of bloodstains on Lizzie and Bridget, and no murder weapon in the house.
Surely this is a simpler explanation than "it was hidden so the numerous police searches couldn't find it"?

I think you're jumping to conclusions. Lizzie knew that house inside out and up and down. In my opinion she could very well have hidden the weapon and her clothes so the police would not find them. It's also possible that she got some help. Maybe Bridget or Dr. Bowen. We know both of them were inside of that house.

[Kat]

I'm only going by what Lizzie said under oath. Granted, she is not asked about her night pail. But her friends mention it, and I think Bridget does too. You might find what you think you are looking for there.

But so far, is it assuming to say Lizzie brought down her slop pail (if it is not her menstrual pail) Thursday morning and brought it back up?
She did have an extra one- she could have been also using Emma's, as she was away. Also, slop pail can contain the morning's wash water- not necessarilly anything else which might need cleaning as soon as possible.
I would just like to see the info, thanks.

[Shelley]

The mention of pails, chamber pots, trips to the cellar, etc. has always fascinated me about this case. I wish a little more detailed questioning had gone on about this topic. The slop pail was usually of ironstone or porcelain, and had either two porcelain handles, or a metal wire handle for careful carrying. The chamber pots (Emma's and Lizzie's) would be emptied into this tall vessel, then the pots would be rinsed out with water and returned to either the potty chair shelf, under the bed , or to a special shelf on the left side of most commodes which were squarish wooden cabinets, sometimes marble-topped. Then the pail would go out to the privy or down cellar to the water closet to be emptied. In most wealthy homes, the maid did this.

The wash bowl and pitcher went on top and often a towel bar was built into the back. The slop pail Lizzie carried down on Thursday morning was probably similar to the tall vessel in this photo. It is possible Bridget had not seen it before in the cellar when she had been doing the wash on Monday and Tuesday because Lizzie had it up in her room with her sanitary towels in it. When Lizzie had stopped on Wednesday night, she may have taken the lot down Thursday morning to soak. She probably transferred these towels to a soaking galvinized pail down in the laundryroom because Thursday night Lizzie will go down cellar again with her slop pail. So she must have brought her slop pail back upstairs Thursday morning.

Interesting that Andrew did not go through the more refined manner of waste disposal and simply pitched the contents of his nightime emissions from his pot right into the back yard. I suppose they were liquid.

The pail I read that Bridget was carrying into the side door for window washing as Lizzie was going downstairs with her slop pail, I would assume was a galvinized pail for chores.

Just as a point of interest, a hatchet fits very nicely in a slop pail such as the one in this first photo. And it has a top on it. Waste water from the wash bowl and pitcher would also be emptied in a slop jar for disposal.

A better view of a slop pail which can be anywhere from 14-17 inches tall

[Shelley]

The pail one can suppose Bridget was carrying to wash the windows, and that was used to soak those bloody towels as they sat on the brick in the laundry room floor, I believe looked more like this photo


When Lizzie and Alice went into the cellar, Lizzie took her slop pail and went into the watercloset. She returns alone down the cellar and goes into the laundry room. What I want to know is what she did by the sink, and why she returned to the cellar. Why was it necessary to go down a second time, and why did she not do all she had to do the first time with Alice? I wish more questions had been asked about that.

[Harry]

When Lizzie and Alice went into the cellar, Lizzie took her slop pail and went into the watercloset. She returns alone down the cellar and goes into the laundry room. What I want to know is what she did by the sink, and why she returned to the cellar. Why was it necessary to go down a second time, and why did she not do all she had to do the first time with Alice? I wish more questions had been asked about that.

Great photos, Shelley, thanks.

That second trip of Lizzie's is one of the $64,000 questions of the case.

Regarding the first trip, Alice said Lizzie had the pail in her hand and Alice offered to take it down. Lizzie told her to take the lamp. Lizzie didn't ask Alice to go with her, Alice volunteered. I have to wonder whether Lizzie wanted her considering she made a second trip alone. One of the slop pails you show, Shelley, has a handle. If Lizzie's did she would be able to carry the pail and the lamp herself.

Officer Hyde said that Alice told him she did not know Lizzie made a second trip. About 15 minutes after questioning Alice, Hyde said Alice mentioned the wooden stick found beneath the Borden's bed. I kinda think that Alice was having her first suspicion that something was not quite right.

[RayS]

...
I think you're jumping to conclusions. Lizzie knew that house inside out and up and down. In my opinion she could very well have hidden the weapon and her clothes so the police would not find them. It's also possible that she got some help. Maybe Bridget or Dr. Bowen. We know both of them were inside of that house.

Yes, possible is not probable.
"The simplest explanation is likely to be the truth."
So who is jumping to conclusions here?

[Shelley]

OH! I did not know Alice volunteered. Now that is an important point. I notice also that Lizzie waits until Alice is busy bathing with the door closed to go down the second time. Then Alice cannot foist herself on Lizzie a second time. And she goes down the front stairs and did not knock and tell Alice she was passing through to the cellar again. It is much closer to the cellar going down those back stairs. I could imagine Alice saying "What? Why Lizzie we were just down there!".

This is significant. Lizzie makes Alice carry the lamp, not the slop pail. Yes, Harry, I think we are on to something. Oh, by the way both of those slop pails have handles- one is in back. When you see them in antique stores, usually the wire handle is missing and you just see those porcelain knobs on each side.

[RayS]

How about this explanation, based on what I know.
The door was shut when Lizzie went up, the Secret Visitor was there and didn't want anyone looking in.
Later, when the Visitor left the room and went downstairs to meet Andy he left it open. Presumably Lizzie went out in the backyard, Bridget was now in her room.

Things change in the real world. An open door can be shut, and a shut door can be left open.

The exasperating difficulty about this mystery is that we can never know for sure. If we did, it would not be a mystery.

My only problem with that is that the secret visitor would have known that Lizzie was about. So why didn't the killer get LIzzie too just to be on the safe side?

I can't really answer that, can I?
Perhaps Willy knew that Lizzie had left, and, never thought about that. With people out on the street, I don't see him running around waving a bloody hatchet. Do you?
Would he have known that Bridget was upstairs in the 3rd floor too?

[RayS]

How about this explanation, based on what I know.
The door was shut when Lizzie went up, the Secret Visitor was there and didn't want anyone looking in.
Later, when the Visitor left the room and went downstairs to meet Andy he left it open. Presumably Lizzie went out in the backyard, Bridget was now in her room.

Things change in the real world. An open door can be shut, and a shut door can be left open.

The exasperating difficulty about this mystery is that we can never know for sure. If we did, it would not be a mystery.

We know Lizzie was in the house because both she and Bridget put her there. We know Bridget was in the house because she testified to that and Lizzie also puts her there. We do not know that a "Secret Visitor" was there. Given the fact that no one, as far as I know, ever testified to saying there was a "Secret Visitor I think you can only speculate to someone else being inside the house.

Yes, you can also call it a surmise in drawing the inference of a Secret Visitor by the fact that no bloodstains or hatchet were found in the home. Hence, an Intruder. Read some of Ann Rule's magazine stories (collected in her books) on this and similar crimes committed by an intruder.

No one testified about a Visitor because they wanted to keep it hid. Like some sort of family secret, a skeleton in the closet. You can read Lawyer Jennings references to this in the Trial. E. Porter's book has it.

[Smudgeman]

Yes, there were bloodstains in the house, but unfortunately DNA evidence was not available then. So no blood found in the house is not a fact.

[RayS]

Yes, there were bloodstains in the house, but unfortunately DNA evidence was not available then. So no blood found in the house is not a fact.

All that DNA evidence would show was it came from Abby or Andy. No one else was known to be wounded.
If a bloody dress or hatchet was hidden away, any blood that was smeared off would be in that hiding place.
Will you admit that not only no bloody dress or hatchet was found, but no trace of any bloodstains where they shouldn't be?
Blood will tell.

In one of Erle Stanley Gardner's books from the 1950s? he tells about a test. At the beginning of the week one volunteer wrote a word in blood on this arm. He showed it to the rest of the class, then washed it off. The next day he was asked if he bathed or showered; yes. Same question and answer the 3rd and 4th day. On the fifth day the same arm was shown to the class. A liquid was sprayed on that arm, and blue stains showed where the word was!!! I believe this was the first public telling about what is called Luminol (trade name?).

[Kat]

We saw pails like this when Stef posted some and we had a similar discussion.
I still don't see where anyone shows that Lizzie took her slop pail or any pail down stairs Thursday morning and then brought it back up. Can that be shown please is all I am asking? I think the details should be put here for future use.

The second trip down at night alone by Lizzie is detailed [rather evocatively, if I do say so ] in the Hatchet article on the House, "The Borden House, Frame by Frame," Dec./Jan 2004-2005.

[Kat]

I had a thought hit me about that stick under the elder Borden's bed found late by Alice- I wondered if it could have once been an axe handle? !! Whittled by Andrew when Lizzie was just a girl- at 15! Right. Maybe that was a fib?

[Allen]

While there is evidence in the form of Bridget's testimony that Lizzie brought the pail down that morning, I don't think there is any evidence that can be directly referenced which states that Lizzie brought it back up. Some of us more or less infer this from the fact that there was again a pail in her room which she brought back down later that night. I think it the was a habit in those days after the pail had been emptied and cleaned out to replace it back where it was stored for future use. This is why everyone had their own. Sure she could've used Emma's but I don't find it likely in my opinion. If her sister had been home she would've cleaned out her own and replaced it for future use. Even if we were assume she had a spare where was it kept? I don't believe she kept two under her bed. Sort of just saying if she didn't bring it up, how did one get up there?

I believe if the stick was an axe handle, the police probably would've recognized it as such whether it was a crudely whittled instrument or not. Especially since they were looking for the implement which did the deed. Do we have any evidence that it was the right size and dimensions to have been an axe handle?

[Angel]

I just thought of something---if Alice found the stick under her bed the night she stayed there, then it had to have been put there by someone that evening after the police had checked out the house. I would think the police would have found it when searching the house during the day right after the murders and inquired about it. Is there any mention somewhere that they did? I don't remember reading it anywhere. If they didn't see it, then why was it placed there later? To scare Alice? Then why didn't she ask Lizzie about what it was doing there? To have as protection during the night? Then why didn't someone alert Alice it was there so she would be aware of the protection? Or because of some other weird reason? Very bizarre.

[Shelley]

Thanks! I have been looking off and on all morning to find that reference to Lizzie's bringing down her slop pail. True, she might have had it filled with those towels, and left it to soak in the cellar, but then again, there was usually a chamber pot for each room, and generally a slop jar in which multiple pots were emptied in the morning and carried out to the privy or to the watercloset. I get the impression that, like Andrew, everyone took care of their own pail and pot. The pail with the soaking napkins, seems to be more likely another type of pail, not the one she would be needing up in her room.

A chamberpot was a rather personal thing, and I doubt Lizzie would have used Emma's pot. Emma might have had her own slop jar though, for her own wash basin and chamberpot. Lizzie had been up in her room since about 9:15 pm Wednesday night until about 9 am Thursday morning, (including taking time to dress and write a letter to Emma) so it stands to reason that she, as most people do, would have had an occasion to use her "convenience" before bed and upon arising.

Then she was up in her room after the murders for a very long time- maybe from noon- to 8:45 p.m. when she and Alice went down to the cellar, so she probably (after all Mrs. Bowen's tea) had made a few visits to the "facility" in her room. I have never seen anything written that Lizzie came downstairs before that trip with Alice that night.

All this pail business interests me as I have found it difficult to carry a slop pail, a pile of laundry and manage a long skirt up those steep front stairs. I am wondering then, how accurate Lizzie's morning testimony might be.

Taking in all the inconsistencies, Lizzie may have seen Abby in the guestroom when she was coming out of her room to go into the cellar, carrying her slop pail. After Lizzie came up from the cellar, and took it back upstairs with the laundry to her room, Abby may have finished the guestroom, closed the door and gone downstairs where the diningroom conversation took place. But then we still have to get Abby back upstairs to get killed. There's that dilemma.

There's just something all very strange about that testimony, and Lizzie does admit "going up again" just about as soon as she had come down. I always thought she was refering to going back up after she went down to the cellar, which would have put her back upstairs in the interval we believe Abby must have been killed, around 9:15-9:20 a.m. I think it's worth digging into closely.

[Kat]

When you say it's worth digging into closely, do you mean it is worth discussing at more length with our opinions, or do you mean it should be looked at in testimony? Lizzie is pretty much what we've got for that time frame and I have looked at that closely- I spent an hour gathering her statements, printing it out and annotating it in the margins, getting a good overview of what she said and summarizing it here. I enjoy that kind of work.
We can look at what Bridget says Lizzie did.

[Kat]

I'm collecting Lizzie's pails. I was thinking, as I said, we should get this stuff together.
Now, doesn't Bridget say she did not see the pail with the cloths in it in the cellar the day she did the laundry? I can't find that.
We haven't gotten out Alice yet or Mr. Hyde.

Bridget
Prelim
86
Q. Did you see Mr. Borden at any time that morning empty his pail, his slop pail?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Was that before or after breakfast?
A. Before breakfast.

Q. Did you see Miss Lizzie empty hers?
A. No Sir.

Q. Was she in the habit of doing it?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. They each did that, and were accustomed to do it?
A. Yes Sir.
_______
Trial
224
Q. About how long was it after Mr. Morse went that Miss Lizzie Borden came?
A. I don't know how long it was. It was no more than five minutes, I don't think. I
don't remember how the time was.

Q. When she came, into which room did she come? Where did you first see her?
A. The kitchen.

Q. From what room did she come?
A. From the sitting-room.

Q. What did she do?
A. She came through the kitchen and she left down the slop pail, and I asked her what did she want for breakfast. She said she didn't know as she wanted any breakfast, but she guessed she would have something, she would have some coffee and cookies.

Q. (By Mr. Robinson.) What did you say?
A. I asked her what did she want for her breakfast. She said she didn't want any breakfast but she felt as if she should have something, she guessed she would have some coffee and cookies.

Q. (By Mr. Moody.) And what did she do after she said that?
A. She got some coffee, got her cup and saucer and got some coffee; and I went out in the back yard, and she was getting her own breakfast.

Q. Had she sat down before you went out to the back yard?
A. Yes, sir; she was preparing sitting down at the kitchen table.


__________

Trial
Mrs. Holmes
Q. What time did you go away that night?
A. About half past eight.

Q. Was there any use of the toilet things that afternoon, Mrs. Holmes?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Any reason why the slop-pail should be filled?
A. I should think so, if I was to stay there all night.

Q. No, I mean in the afternoon, by reason of use in the afternoon?
A. Yes, that is what I say.

Q. For washing and various other purposes. What do you mean by "if you stayed all night you should"?
A. Why, I should think---

MR. KNOWLTON. It is perfectly obvious what she means. You need not ask the details on our account.

MR. ROBINSON. Better have it on the jury's account.

Page 1504

MR. KNOWLTON. Well, the jury can understand it.

[Shelley]

I was meaning that it would be valuable to examine all testimony about the slop pail, not just our opinions.

Bridget does not say she saw Lizzie empty hers, true, -but I can't imagine she would just set it down in the kitchen and leave it.

"A. She came through the kitchen and she left down the slop pail,"Lizzie most likely went downstairs to empty it when Bridget went outside, or was occupied in the kitchen.

I have had a burning notion for many years that the hatchet could have been collected in the cellar during this time, hidden in the slop pail when she carried the pail back upstairs. I know this is not an original theory, but it has some merit IMO. It would explain how a weapon was handy, and disguised at the ready upstairs. After killing Abby, washing up and emptying the bloody water, and towels, she had plenty of leisure time to go back into the basement and empty the pail and put the towels down to soak in a bucket near the sink. When it became clear that Andrew was going to have to be killed also, she could have gone downstairs and retrieved the hatchet, come through the diningroom and of course attacked from the doorway. This, of course all presumes you believe Lizzie guilty

[Kat]

Well, we are missing a statement about a second trip upstairs. Mind you, I'm not saying in any way that your supposition is wrong- not at all. I am looking for back-up tho. I was trying to elicit some. That's why I am getting out the pails.

If Lizzie did make 2 trips that might explain her two stories.
One that was as soon as she got down she went back up. And the other- that she was up there when Andrew came home.

Note tho- Bridget says Lizzie let down the pail and started to sit to have her coffee. That doesn't sound like Lizzie immediately took her pail down cellar and came back up with it and went upstairs and then came down to have her coffee.
During this time tho, Bridget was throwing up outside.

[Shelley]

"If Lizzie did make 2 trips that might explain her two stories.
One that was as soon as she got down she went back up. And the other- that she was up there when Andrew came home."

Yep, we are on the same page here. If she went up as soon as she had come down, that seems the ideal and logical time that she went down, emptied her pail and then went back up with the pail and put it back in her room. That makes sense to me. I would have a hard time imagining Lizzie sitting down to eat (which later she changes her story from eating cookies, a half a banana, then nothing) while her full slop pail is sitting on the floor in the kitchen. UGH. I think Bridget was outside throwing up or was busy with something else and did not actually see Lizzie go down. It takes a very short moment to do this from the kitchen to the watercloset.

[RayS]

Removing a top, and looking into the empty bucket would hide nothing.
I'm sure Lizzie emptied out the pail as soon as she came to the basement.

Just ask yourself what you would do.

[Haulover]

just an observation: what is interesting about this kat/shelley discussion is that it focuses in on one of those critical points where the loose ends show up -- which happens to be near the time of abby's murder. well, it's obvious, but i wanted to say it. we may assume but can't be positive where abby is. bridget conveniently exits the house (apparently a smart thing to do in retrospect). and lizzie's pail makes an appearance in the kitchen. i see shelleys' point about lizzie just leaving it there and getting coffee and cookies. (what is funny is i just reviewed one of the books where andrew is still home at this point and tells lizzie to "get rid of that" -- referring to her pail). which is another point -- exactly at this point in time, where is andrew -- in or out?

didn't lizzie say at one point that she went right straight down to the cellar when she came down? but why would bridget say she put it down and got coffee?

[Susan]

I had a thought about Lizzie's slop pail, perhaps it wasn't filled with human waste, but, just waste water instead from Lizzie's morning ablutions. Most adults can make it through the night without using the toilet. Lizzie comes through the kitchen to the sink room where Bridget is doing dishes and perhaps she just intended to empty it in the sink there, she can't and sets it down on the floor there and then goes about getting breakfast.

I noticed that Bridget uses that term a few times, "came through", which sounds to me like she means someone coming into the kitchen on their way to somewhere else. So, the slop pail needn't necessarily be in the kitchen proper where the eating went on.

Trial volume 1, page 224:

Q. After Mr. Borden went upstairs did you remain in the kitchen until someone else came, or did you go away?

A. No, Sir, I was washing the dishes at the sink, and Miss Lizzie came through.

Q. What did she do?

A. She came through the kitchen and she left down the slop pail, and I asked her what she wanted for breakfast. She said she didn't know as she wanted any breakfast, but she guessed she would have something, she would have some coffee and cookies.

Preliminary Volume 1, page 12:

Q. When you started to go out in the barn, do you remember how you found the door then?

A. Miss Lizzie came through the kitchen then, as I started to go out in the barn with a pail. She was at the back door.

[Shelley]

Yes, what is confusing about those statements is they sound like two different times- once when Bridget was at the sink and once when she was going out to the barn. I agree, the slop jar may have had only waste water in it. Bridget says she did not see that pail of soaking towelettes in the wash room all week when she was down there washing clothes and perhaps it was those towelettes Lizzie was taking down as she had finished needing them Wednesday night.

I put a lot of importance on how people usually behave day to day in a normal routine- and if they do something to differ from the norm, it is usually worth looking into. I would bet most people, upon rising- especially by 9 a.m. normally go right into the bathroom. We don't lnow if Lizzie went straight to bed when she got home from Alice's but say she went to bed about 10. Surely by 9 a.m. she would have needed the watercloset.

I am wondering if Emma and Lizzie used a chamberpot, or had one in their rooms. Just perhaps they used the watercloset when they needed it as they were young and fit enough to go up and down the stairs and had good bladder control. Elderly folks in those days did need a chamberpot, especially with any illnesses or infimities. I have not seen a mention of those chamberpots in room descriptions. Lizzie refers to her toilet room- but that might have meant the old-fashioned expression of washing-up and dressing area-not the place where a potty chair was kept. I wish we knew more about these arrangements. I think there is much to be learned from following the trail of the various trips to the cellar and pails and slop jars that morning and that evening -and even if Lizzie ever went down cellar that afternoon. A hatchet fits very cozily in a slop jar and we know there were hatchets in that cellar.