A Boy and a Note

[twinsrwe]

"Arnold Brown's book mentions that Willy was a skilled butcher of animals.

BTW I believe most farmers NEVER asked others to do this, it was part of their job and they wouldn't want to spend a dime on this.

I'm surprised no one has ever challenged Brown on this. It seems like a fact designed to support his Theory. I don't think its truth or falsity is germane to his solution.

I totally agree with you, Ray. As you know, I grew up on a farm... I can say, without a doubt, that no farmer is ever going to ask another farmer to down an animal for him. It just is not done. Farmers down their own animals; a bullet will do the trick quite nicely.

On page 292 of Arnold Brown's book, he wrote: "It seems there was this day when he was visiting someplace in his good suit when he heard that a neighbor had a horse that had to be put down. Well they went to that neighbor's house, and when the fellow saw Bill dressed in his good suit he said, "Never mind. Come back tomorrow when you're dressed proper." Bill was never one for people to tell him what to do, and so he said he could do his job dressed like a banker and never worry. You can guess what happened. Bill was showing off, of course, and as sometimes happens when you do, something went wrong. When he delivered the second blow to the horse, blood spurted enough to cover three counties and Bill's suit was a bloody mess. Those who had gathered to watch thought it was the funniest thing to come down the pike in years, but the more they laughed, the madder Bill got. He chopped and chopped and copped at that poor carcass until the head was mincemeat, and then he turned on those who were laughing, He scared the wits out of them, and something real awful might have happened except the horse's owner was the first one Bill headed for with the bloody hatchet waving over his head. The man happened to have a pistol in his belt because he already had made up his mind to shoot the animal when he learned that Bill was in the neighborhood. Anyway, he showed Bill that pistol and Bill remembered his manners real quicklike. He lowered the hatchet, asked the man for his dollar fee, was paid, and left.

Following are several things that make this part of Brown's book totally unbelievable...

1. No farmer, in their right mind, is going to down an animal in their good suit. Granted, Bill does not seem to be 'in his right mind' throughout Brown's book, however, downing an animal in a good suit, just is not done.
2. No farmer, who has an animal to down, is going to wait until tomorrow, especially, when he already has a pistol in his belt.
3. Spurted blood is not going to cover three counties, do you think?
4. No one, in a farming community, is going to go a farmer's place to watch an animal being put down.
5. No farmer who has made up their mind to shoot an animal and has the pistol in his belt, is going to stop and wait for a neighbor to come and down the animal for him.
6. No farmer is going to pay a neighbor to down an animal - he already has a pistol in his belt; a bullet is cheaper and takes a lot less time to accomplish the task.

I truly believe that Brown made up the this part of his book to support his theory. No doubt about.

[RayS]

"Arnold Brown's book mentions that Willy was a skilled butcher of animals.

BTW I believe most farmers NEVER asked others to do this, it was part of their job and they wouldn't want to spend a dime on this.

I'm surprised no one has ever challenged Brown on this. It seems like a fact designed to support his Theory. I don't think its truth or falsity is germane to his solution.

I totally agree with you, Ray. As you know, I grew up on a farm... I can say, without a doubt, that no farmer is ever going to ask another farmer to down an animal for him. It just is not done. Farmers down their own animals; a bullet will do the trick quite nicely.

On page 292 of Arnold Brown's book, he wrote: "It seems there was this day when he was visiting someplace in his good suit when he heard that a neighbor had a horse that had to be put down. Well they went to that neighbor's house, and when the fellow saw Bill dressed in his good suit he said, "Never mind. Come back tomorrow when you're dressed proper." Bill was never one for people to tell him what to do, and so he said he could do his job dressed like a banker and never worry. You can guess what happened. Bill was showing off, of course, and as sometimes happens when you do, something went wrong. When he delivered the second blow to the horse, blood spurted enough to cover three counties and Bill's suit was a bloody mess. Those who had gathered to watch thought it was the funniest thing to come down the pike in years, but the more they laughed, the madder Bill got. He chopped and chopped and copped at that poor carcass until the head was mincemeat, and then he turned on those who were laughing, He scared the wits out of them, and something real awful might have happened except the horse's owner was the first one Bill headed for with the bloody hatchet waving over his head. The man happened to have a pistol in his belt because he already had made up his mind to shoot the animal when he learned that Bill was in the neighborhood. Anyway, he showed Bill that pistol and Bill remembered his manners real quicklike. He lowered the hatchet, asked the man for his dollar fee, was paid, and left.

Following are several things that make this part of Brown's book totally unbelievable...

1. No farmer, in their right mind, is going to down an animal in their good suit. Granted, Bill does not seem to be 'in his right mind' throughout Brown's book, however, downing an animal in a good suit, just is not done.
2. No farmer, who has an animal to down, is going to wait until tomorrow, especially, when he already has a pistol in his belt.
3. Spurted blood is not going to cover three counties, do you think?
4. No one, in a farming community, is going to go a farmer's place to watch an animal being put down.
5. No farmer who has made up their mind to shoot an animal and has the pistol in his belt, is going to stop and wait for a neighbor to come and down the animal for him.
6. No farmer is going to pay a neighbor to down an animal - he already has a pistol in his belt; a bullet is cheaper and takes a lot less time to accomplish the task.

I truly believe that Brown made up the this part of his book to support his theory. No doubt about.

Thanks for agreeing with me. I do not accept any book as infallible.
I prefer to believe this is one of those "Legends of Lizzie" story, but about the less well known Willy.
Wasn't Mass committed to keeping the Sabbath Day? One reason for not working. Read some history book about America in 18th and 19th century. I think this story was designed to show Willy's character, and, to perhaps explain any lack of bloodstains (trying to have it both ways).

If you read that closely, it says Willy was visiting on Sunday (common then and now?), he heard about his neighbor. Ever know some guys who try to show off or boast?

I believe a hatchet was used for a small animal like chickens, and maybe something larger. I thought an regular axe was used for cattle, big animals. Why waste a bullet?

"3 counties" is an obvious exaggeration; not even ten yard radius, IMO.

You haven't posted your age. Ever read "Hoards' Dairyman" magazine? Is it still published? (To show my limited knowledge.)

[twinsrwe]

Thanks for agreeing with me. I do not accept any book as infallible.
I prefer to believe this is one of those "Legends of Lizzie" story, but about the less well known Willy.
Wasn't Mass committed to keeping the Sabbath Day? One reason for not working. Read some history book about America in 18th and 19th century. I think this story was designed to show Willy's character, and, to perhaps explain any lack of bloodstains (trying to have it both ways).

If you read that closely, it says Willy was visiting on Sunday (common then and now?), he heard about his neighbor. Ever know some guys who try to show off or boast?

I believe a hatchet was used for a small animal like chickens, and maybe something larger. I thought an regular axe was used for cattle, big animals. Why waste a bullet?

"3 counties" is an obvious exaggeration; not even ten yard radius, IMO.

You haven't posted your age. Ever read "Hoards' Dairyman" magazine? Is it still published? (To show my limited knowledge.)

Ray, I'm sorry, but I don't see where it says that Bill was visiting on Sunday, it just says "there was this day"; however, by reading between the lines, one can assume that it may have been a Sunday. It is true that the Sabbath Day is suppose to be a day of rest, but, in the 'real world' of a farmer, there is no such thing as a day of rest; the same is true of taking a sick day, as well as, taking a vacation. Being raised on a dairy farm, I can assure you that, the cows still needed to be milked twice a day, everyday, as well as cleaning the milking equipment. All of the animals needed to be fed; cows, bull, calves, pigs, horses, chickens, geese, dogs and cats. There was also the gutters in the barn that needed to be cleaned. Sunday's were not a day of rest, by any means; a farmer may have a few of hours of rest on Sunday afternoons, if he was lucky. It really doesn't matter if the day in question was a Sunday or not. The part of Brown's book that I quoted from in my previous post, just does not ring true.

I don't recall that my father ever owned a hatchet; an axe was used to kill chickens, bullets were always used to down cattle and other large animals. No farmer, in the farming community that I grew up in, used an axe to down a large animals. Farmers do not consider it a waste of a bullet, when it comes to downing a large animal. Let me tell you a true story... When I was 10-11 years of age, our neighbor's son, who was in his early twenties, was treed by my father's bull. The bull was not about to back off; he held this young man tapped up in this tree for several hours. Do you really believe it is plausible that my father would approach this bull with an axe in his hand? Absolutely not, that is, not unless he wanted to be trampled to death. You can bet my father used a bullet.

You may be correct in saying that Brown designed this story to show Bill's character, unfortunately, Brown's creditability was lost in the process. Any reader, that knows anything about the life of a farmer, is going see right through this story, and know that Brown is full of it. As a reader, if I can't find this part of Brown's theory plausible then how can I believe any other part of his theory to be realistic?

BTW: My parents did have several "Hoards' Dairyman" magazines, however, I did not have the time to read them as I was too busy doing a farmers work. I did find out, via, the internet that this magazine is still published.

I think we need to get back to the subject of this topic, don't you?

[twinsrwe]

I don't believe a note existed. I think the note was invented by Lizzie to prevent her father from finding Abby. I also think that Abby was the primary target, after all she received almost twice the number of blows as Andrew.

I have not been able to come up with any source for anyone who may have seen a boy or a young man delivering a note that morning, either, however, I haven't given up yet. My search continues...

[RayS]

...
Ray, I'm sorry, but I don't see where it says that Bill was visiting on Sunday, it just says "there was this day"; however, by reading between the lines, one can assume that it may have been a Sunday. It is true that the Sabbath Day is suppose to be a day of rest, but, in the 'real world' of a farmer, there is no such thing as a day of rest; the same is true of taking a sick day, as well as, taking a vacation. Being raised on a dairy farm, I can assure you that, the cows still needed to be milked twice a day, everyday, as well as cleaning the milking equipment. All of the animals needed to be fed; cows, bull, calves, pigs, horses, chickens, geese, dogs and cats. There was also the gutters in the barn that needed to be cleaned. Sunday's were not a day of rest, by any means; a farmer may have a few of hours of rest on Sunday afternoons, if he was lucky. It really doesn't matter if the day in question was a Sunday or not. The part of Brown's book that I quoted from in my previous post, just does not ring true.

I don't recall that my father ever owned a hatchet; an axe was used to kill chickens, bullets were always used to down cattle and other large animals. No farmer, in the farming community that I grew up in, used an axe to down a large animals. Farmers do not consider it a waste of a bullet, when it comes to downing a large animal. Let me tell you a true story... When I was 10-11 years of age, our neighbor's son, who was in his early twenties, was treed by my father's bull. The bull was not about to back off; he held this young man tapped up in this tree for several hours. Do you really believe it is plausible that my father would approach this bull with an axe in his hand? Absolutely not, that is, not unless he wanted to be trampled to death. You can bet my father used a bullet.

You may be correct in saying that Brown designed this story to show Bill's character, unfortunately, Brown's creditability was lost in the process. Any reader, that knows anything about the life of a farmer, is going see right through this story, and know that Brown is full of it. As a reader, if I can't find this part of Brown's theory plausible then how can I believe any other part of his theory to be realistic?

BTW: My parents did have several "Hoards' Dairyman" magazines, however, I did not have the time to read them as I was too busy doing a farmers work. I did find out, via, the internet that this magazine is still published.

I think we need to get back to the subject of this topic, don't you?

As you read the book you'd know that Willy was an apple (cider) farmer. Yes a dairyman is busy 24X7, but my Uncle and Aunt still had time to go to church, and their family. Work in shifts? There is often plenty of time after the harvest and before spring planting for non-dairy farmers. IMO

I wasn't there, but I believe Brown's book is based on the Hathaway memoirs plus his own investigation into this case. There is no date, time, and place for the story mentioned, or where it came from. People do tell stories as long as you won't mention their name in the press.

I accept your old story about a bull treeing a young man. But what was he doing on your property? I remember the bull as being mostly confined to a stall in a barn, only being led out to perform his 'marital duties'. And that is not about specifically slaughtering a cow or a pig (more likely).

Many years ago when visiting these relatives they came back w/ about 6 young pigs in a truck. THEN they had to corral them to bring them to the pigsty. Future food. Also once I saw about 4 Guernsey (Jersey?) brown bullocks (?). Bought at the end of the day's auction for $5 each. Also to be raised for food; they used Holsteins exclusively for milk. Of course you know why.

I would guess your age as about fortyish; younger and you'd be busy at home, much older and probably not computer-literate. How close am I? (This is just my little hobby.)

The fact about Brown's book is that it is the only one to present a parallax view of the crime, and a rational explanation of the events. (After correcting or improving the motive, as in Part 4). IMO

http://hoards.com/farm/index.html

[RayS]

I don't believe a note existed. I think the note was invented by Lizzie to prevent her father from finding Abby. I also think that Abby was the primary target, after all she received almost twice the number of blows as Andrew.

I have not been able to come up with any source for anyone who may have seen a boy or a young man delivering a note that morning, either, however, I haven't given up yet. My search continues...

According to Lizzie and Bridget (?) Andy did not question this story when he heard it. Some others have speculated that this was an excuse for Abby to join Andy at the bank. Now that is hard to believe (for me).

Those who made up this story must believe that Lizzie intended to kill both her parents from the git-go. Now would the Silent Government allow a murderess to escape justice?

Brown's theory works as it explains Lizzie's silence (and Uncle John's) plus the acquienscence of the local government. Unless you believe that a high-profile case would be allowed to pervert justice? NOW that is something that needs to be proven, with "documentary proof".

[Allen]

Maybe we could do a little research on the methods used to butcher animals in the nineteenth century? If we want to put any questions to rest? Methods used then may be very different from what we know today. I also remember hearing somewhere that to shoot an animal back then before it was butchered was "a waste of a bullet." I"m not sure of the source but I have heard it said. But I can't vouch for how true it is without research. From what I seem to remember from when I did some research on slaughter houses awhile back, their throats are slit and they are allowed to bleed out. A bullet to the head may have been wasteful because some people actually ate/eat the brains of the animal as well. Just an idea.

But as to the boy and the note. I do have a question about that which I have been thinking about. Mrs. Bowen was sitting at her window watching for her daugther to arrive. Would she have seen a note arrive?

[Shelley]

With the traffic on that street, and a livery stable and Boston Coach depot across the street, I should imagine a great many people would see a boy knocking on the front door. When would the note have come, assuming there was a note? John and Andrew, Abby and Bridget were all up before Lizzie to answer the door. John probably would not have answered the front door as he was a guest. Andrew goes out at nine or thereabouts, and by then Lizzie was down and about. Bridget was then stationed on the South end of the house, so what time could it have come where John or Bridget would have not known about it, they being the only ones who was left alive and downstairs when a note might have come. Neither of them confirmed a note delivery.

[Kat]

Well, even if your points are never answered twinsrwe, I thank you for the thoughtful content- they are very interesting!

[RayS]

Maybe we could do a little research on the methods used to butcher animals in the nineteenth century? If we want to put any questions to rest? Methods used then may be very different from what we know today. I also remember hearing somewhere that to shoot an animal back then before it was butchered was "a waste of a bullet." I"m not sure of the source but I have heard it said. But I can't vouch for how true it is without research. From what I seem to remember from when I did some research on slaughter houses awhile back, their throats are slit and they are allowed to bleed out. A bullet to the head may have been wasteful because some people actually ate/eat the brains of the animal as well. Just an idea.

But as to the boy and the note. I do have a question about that which I have been thinking about. Mrs. Bowen was sitting at her window watching for her daugther to arrive. Would she have seen a note arrive?

The passage of a small boy would have been too common to attract attention. IMO People see what they expect to see. Read GK Chesterton's story "The Invisible Man" on this.
I've heard of wringing the neck of birds/chickens. Hitting a rabbit on the back of the neck ("Rabbit Punch"). Don't know about cattle myself, never asked this important question.
Pigs are still slaughtered by slicing their neck so the blood will run out. This prevents spoilage of their meat by bloodstains. So I read.

[RayS]

...
I don't recall that my father ever owned a hatchet; an axe was used to kill chickens, bullets were always used to down cattle and other large animals. No farmer, in the farming community that I grew up in, used an axe to down a large animals. Farmers do not consider it a waste of a bullet, when it comes to downing a large animal. Let me tell you a true story... When I was 10-11 years of age, our neighbor's son, who was in his early twenties, was treed by my father's bull. The bull was not about to back off; he held this young man tapped up in this tree for several hours. Do you really believe it is plausible that my father would approach this bull with an axe in his hand? Absolutely not, that is, not unless he wanted to be trampled to death. You can bet my father used a bullet.

...

Thinking about it some more, I still can't believe a neighbor would go into a fenced pasture that contained a live bull. Usually they are cleared, not bushes, etc. That story doesn't ring true to me. But it could happen. Unless there is more here than you can remember.

In any event a bull is a necessary animal for a dairy farm, unless you want to pay for artificial insemination. I can't believe a dairyman would kill his bull just because of a trespassing neighbor. Does anyone else?
I believe there are other ways to control bulls that are non-lethal.

[Shelley]

We do not know it was a small boy. Nobody knows who delivered a note- there is no testimony on that. It could have been a man or a woman. Every other odd looking man was seen that day it would appear.

[RayS]

We do not know it was a small boy. Nobody knows who delivered a note- there is no testimony on that. It could have been a man or a woman. Every other odd looking man was seen that day it would appear.

Exactly that! A small boy would not attract the attention of a grown adult.
Wouldn't the usage of words then might mean a "boy" for any young man?

"Elementary, my dear Watson."

[Shelley]

It is hard to say with any confidence and certainty that a small boy would not attract attention or at least be noted. Depends on the small boy and his appearance and actions. Seems as if everyone was peering out their window or reporting people and carriages that morning. More importantly would be to me is exactly WHEN such a note could come and not be observed coming by anyone else in that household or neighbors and others passing by?

As to calling a young man a boy, well, it depends on the age of the person remarking. Lately all policemen and fireman are starting to look like "boys" to me. Age is the great factor.

[william]

I believe Lizzie's story about "the note," to be a blatant falsehood - all of her other remarks and testimony could have been explained away in some fashion or other - but not that. It was the one piece of iincriminating evidence that convinced me, beyond a doubt, that she was guilty.

[RayS]

I believe Lizzie's story about "the note," to be a blatant falsehood - all of her other remarks and testimony could have been explained away in some fashion or other - but not that. It was the one piece of iincriminating evidence that convinced me, beyond a doubt, that she was guilty.

Is the lack of a note "incriminating evidence"?
Why did Andy accept this story? Was it not unusual in those days to be summoned by means of a note? Remember, no telephone there.

PS Aren't juries advised to listen to all the evidence before making up their minds?

[RayS]

It is hard to say with any confidence and certainty that a small boy would not attract attention or at least be noted. Depends on the small boy and his appearance and actions. Seems as if everyone was peering out their window or reporting people and carriages that morning. More importantly would be to me is exactly WHEN such a note could come and not be observed coming by anyone else in that household or neighbors and others passing by?

As to calling a young man a boy, well, it depends on the age of the person remarking. Lately all policemen and fireman are starting to look like "boys" to me. Age is the great factor.

Wasn't there a stable across the street (where that bus station is)? Would it have loungers who were hanging out?

I seem to remember there was a small crowd there, and they observed the activity at the Borden house. One man there phoned the local newspaper, then the police station to report a stabbing (or something).
They sent Policeman Allen to investigate, but he had to return to book in a prisoner at 11:30am.

[twinsrwe]

Ray, I am going to answers your questions, that are relevant to Lizzie , in one posting...

I know that Bill Borden was an apple farmer; it really doesn't matter what kind of a farmer he was, does it? I have read Brown's book and I am now re-reading it for the purpose of picking it apart. The part of his book regarding Bill's use of a hatchet to kill a neighbor's horse is just one of the things I find unrealistic. As I stated in my previous post: You may be correct in saying that Brown designed this story to show Bill's character, unfortunately, Brown's creditability was lost in the process. (IMO).

I posted that in the 'real world' of a farmer, there is no such thing as a day of rest. I highlighted the word "day"; this means a 24 hour period of time. Yes, my family did go to church every Sunday morning. On rare occasions, we would go to a family members home to visit, usually on a Sunday afternoon for a couple of hours. The point, in my previous post, was that the chores still needed to be done,.everyday of the week; 365 days a year. There was no day of rest.

Now, about the bull my father shot. I remember this instance quite vividly. This bull was turned out to pasture for breeding purposes. The pasture that this bull was turn out in, contained several open areas of grassland, however, a much larger portion of the pasture was a wooded area which also contained thick areas of berry bushes. This young man was on his way over to see my father regarding some farm business. It was a short jaunt from his house to ours, when cutting through our pasture. Our neighbor's son did not know that the bull was in the pasture, because of the woods; if he had known, he would never have enter the pasture. Anyone who knows anything about bulls, know that you never enter a pasture that has a bull in it as they will charge and trample you to death. You don't mess with bulls. My father had no other choice but to shoot the bull; the bull was not going to back off, it was mad. This is a true story; it is your choice to believe it or not - it really makes no difference to me.

Out of respect for Harry, since this thread is his topic, please send any other questions or comments, regarding the story of my father shooting our bull, via a PM. Thank-you.

Again, I think we need to get back to the subject of this topic, don't you?

[Shelley]

Back to the topic at hand- the famous note- if you believe it existed it must have :
1. come before breakfast on the morning of the murder in the time slot of 6:30 a.m. to 9 a.m.

2. somehow been delivered to Abby without John, Andrew or Bridget seeing or hearing it arrive- as they were all downstairs when Abby was before and during breakfast

3. been delivered to the front or side door without a soul seeing it happen and the house literally sits fronting Second St. with the last step down from the front door being on the street, with Hall's livery and the depot right across the street, Bridget was only steps away from the side door during this time period and a knock on the front door is easily heard upstairs in Lizzie's room, even with her door shut.

4. was read and burned in the stove by Abby without Bridget seeing her do this while she was in the kitchen cooking and doing dishes

5. was read by Abby but the contents not mentioned to John, Bridget or Andrew during or just after breakfast for some reason

6. the content was told to Lizzie by Abby in that very short interchange of conversation Lizzie reports happened in the diningroom before Abby was murdered, but not heard by Bridget

For those who believe John Morse sent it because he had forgotten something at the house- why should he? He arrived with no luggage and planned on being back for lunch.

As for Andrew sending a note- why? , when the farthest point Andrew walked that day was the corner of Bank and North Main St- less than 10 minutes from the house. Why would he pay someone to deliver a note to his wife from whom he just recently parted and who was but 10 minutes away? Not to mention the obvious, why did he ask Lizzie, "Where is Abby?" when he got home.

Who would pass up a $500 reward for being the sick person, the writer of the note , or the individual who delivered it? If it were a "boy" I would think he would be champing at the bit to collect that chunk of money.

or

There was never a note.

[shakiboo]

I don't think anyone else has come up with this one yet, what if Abby did tell Lizzie she had a note and had to go out, and was lieing about it............who know's that was one strange household. But, for me, it was Bridget saying that Abby never went out without telling her she was going, that sounds honest and true, I think it would just be common practice to tell the person that would be answering the door that she needed to be aware that she was needed to do that.

[Shelley]

Another WILD possibility is that Sarah Whitehead had written the note and deliberately did not say so because she wanted Lizzie to swing from a hangman's noose when she saw things looking grim for Lizzie. Remote chance, - yes- but there was no love lost between those two women. Rather than looking for enemies of Andrew, I have always thought they should have looked for enemies of Lizzie.

[theebmonique]

If there was indeed a note, is it possible that it was never really a written note, but a just verbal message ? Or maybe the message was written when it arrived, but that the deliverer took the physical note back and only left the message verbally ?





Tracy

In addition to the above statement...is it possible that IF there was a note...that Abby could have written a quick response to the sender on the back of the note such as "I will be there shortly"...the the deliverer would have taken it back with them...thus not note to be found at the Borden house ? This way Abby could have indeed told Lizzie she had received a note and was going out .





Tracy...

[Harry]

Mmmmm...interesting point, Tracy. IF there was a note and IF it was delivered by a young boy that's a possibility. Good thinking.

I looked at Lizzie's Witness statements and Inquest testimony regarding when she last saw Abbie. They don't jibe.

Witness statement (Fleet's notes, Aug. 4th, page 2):

"Lizzie said that she had not seen Mrs. Borden since about nine o’clock. She then saw her in the bedroom when she was coming down stairs."

Inquest testimony (page 65+):

Q. I want you to tell me just where you found the people when you got down that you did find there?
A. I found Mrs. Borden in the dining room. I found my father in the sitting room.
Q. And Maggie?
A. Maggie was coming in the back door with her pail and brush.
Q. Tell me what talk you had with your mother at that time?
A. She asked me how I felt. I said I felt better than I did Tuesday, but I did not want any breakfast. She asked me what I wanted for dinner. I told her nothing. I told her I did not want anything. She said she was going out, and would get the dinner. That is the last I saw her, or said anything to her.
Q. Where did you go then?
A. Into the kitchen.
Q. Where then?
A. Down cellar.
Q. Gone perhaps five minutes?
A. Perhaps. Not more than that; possibly a little bit more.
Q. When you came back did you see your mother?
A. I did not; I supposed she had gone out.
Q. She did not tell you where she was going?
A. No sir."

[Shelley]

"Lizzie said that she had not seen Mrs. Borden since about nine o’clock. She then saw her in the bedroom when she was coming down stairs."


That's the statement I was looking for. The door had to be open for Lizzie to see Abby. Later Lizzie said the door was shut to the guestroom. I think she had to have made at least two trips upstairs that morning, or she changed her story so as not to put herself upstairs seeing Abby in the guestroom so soon before Abby is killed. I am trying to recall if anyone pressed her on the point of where she saw Abby for the last time.

[Allen]

Inquest testimony of Lizzie Borden page 62:

Q. When did you last see your mother?
A. I did not see her after when I went down in the morning and she was dusting the dining room.

Q. Where did you or she go then?
A. I don't know where she went. I know where I was.

Q. Did you or she leave the dining room first?
A. I think I did. I left her in the dining room.

Q. You never saw her afterwards?
A. No, sir.

Q. Did she say anything about making the bed?
A. She said she had been up and made the bed up fresh, and had dusted teh room and left it all in order. She was going to put some fresh pillow slips on the small pillows at the foot of the bed, and was going to close the room, because she was going to have company Monday and she wanted everything in order.

Q. How long would it take to put on the pillow slips?
A. About two minutes.

Q. How long to to the rest of the things?
A. She had done that when I came down.

Q. All that was left was what?
A. To put on the pillow slips.


Now she had already done all but putting on the pillow slips, and the last place she saw her was in the dining room. It corresponds with what Harry posted above, where she also stated the last place she saw her was in the dining room.

(Sorry for all the edits.)

[RayS]

Another WILD possibility is that Sarah Whitehead had written the note and deliberately did not say so because she wanted Lizzie to swing from a hangman's noose when she saw things looking grim for Lizzie. Remote chance, - yes- but there was no love lost between those two women. Rather than looking for enemies of Andrew, I have always thought they should have looked for enemies of Lizzie.

What a great explanation! Really! Murderess Lizzie could not inherit, more money in the pot for Abby's heirs.

That would explain why Abby did not change into a more formal dress. Brown says this was to visit a lower-status person; he brings out the later death of William Bassett's daughter.

Brown used Uncle John's activities that night to explain the cover-up, etc. I still believe Brown, but that was a good idea.

[RayS]

"Lizzie said that she had not seen Mrs. Borden since about nine o’clock. She then saw her in the bedroom when she was coming down stairs."

That's the statement I was looking for. The door had to be open for Lizzie to see Abby. Later Lizzie said the door was shut to the guestroom. I think she had to have made at least two trips upstairs that morning, or she changed her story so as not to put herself upstairs seeing Abby in the guestroom so soon before Abby is killed. I am trying to recall if anyone pressed her on the point of where she saw Abby for the last time.

I think that Lizzie saw Abby in the kitchen. But there may be no mention of the location. Lizzie went to the WC about 9:30, when she came upstairs Abby was no longer around. Hence, she was summoned by that missing note. Masterton's book tells what was the likely end of that note.

[RayS]

Ray, I am going to answers your questions, that are relevant to Lizzie , in one posting...

I know that Bill Borden was an apple farmer; it really doesn't matter what kind of a farmer he was, does it? I have read Brown's book and I am now re-reading it for the purpose of picking it apart. The part of his book regarding Bill's use of a hatchet to kill a neighbor's horse is just one of the things I find unrealistic. As I stated in my previous post: You may be correct in saying that Brown designed this story to show Bill's character, unfortunately, Brown's creditability was lost in the process. (IMO).

I posted that in the 'real world' of a farmer, there is no such thing as a day of rest. I highlighted the word "day"; this means a 24 hour period of time. Yes, my family did go to church every Sunday morning. On rare occasions, we would go to a family members home to visit, usually on a Sunday afternoon for a couple of hours. The point, in my previous post, was that the chores still needed to be done,.everyday of the week; 365 days a year. There was no day of rest.

Now, about the bull my father shot. I remember this instance quite vividly. This bull was turned out to pasture for breeding purposes. The pasture that this bull was turn out in, contained several open areas of grassland, however, a much larger portion of the pasture was a wooded area which also contained thick areas of berry bushes. This young man was on his way over to see my father regarding some farm business. It was a short jaunt from his house to ours, when cutting through our pasture. Our neighbor's son did not know that the bull was in the pasture, because of the woods; if he had known, he would never have enter the pasture. Anyone who knows anything about bulls, know that you never enter a pasture that has a bull in it as they will charge and trample you to death. You don't mess with bulls. My father had no other choice but to shoot the bull; the bull was not going to back off, it was mad. This is a true story; it is your choice to believe it or not - it really makes no difference to me.

Out of respect for Harry, since this thread is his topic, please send any other questions or comments, regarding the story of my father shooting our bull, via a PM. Thank-you.

Again, I think we need to get back to the subject of this topic, don't you?

I don't like Private Messages, I want everything to be out in the open. No one else has ever said this!!!
I NEVER said Brown concocted this story, I think he gathered it in his two year investigation.
Thanks for admitting that farmers did go to church or visit on a Sunday. I believe that in earlier years women did not even cook on Sundays, just used cold leftovers. Bread was the staff of life.
I find it difficult to believe that a farmer would shoot a prized bull just because some neighbor had trespassed. Wouldn't the cattle make noises?
But there may be another reason for the slaying that you didn't mention or know about.

Your enlarged story seems to have a problem. I believe the cattle would soon eat up the berry bushes, just as their rubbing against trees would soon kill them. I've seen this myself, although never lived on a farm.

[Kat]

"Lizzie said that she had not seen Mrs. Borden since about nine o’clock. She then saw her in the bedroom when she was coming down stairs."


That's the statement I was looking for. The door had to be open for Lizzie to see Abby. Later Lizzie said the door was shut to the guestroom. I think she had to have made at least two trips upstairs that morning, or she changed her story so as not to put herself upstairs seeing Abby in the guestroom so soon before Abby is killed. I am trying to recall if anyone pressed her on the point of where she saw Abby for the last time.

Fleet's notes in the Witness Statements cannot be wholly relied upon. Someone filled in illegible words and we end up with what Harry posted.
In William's Casebook Fleet's original and "handwritten" notes say:
"Lizzie said that she had not seen Mrs. Borden since about 9 o'clock She thought _____Bedroom when she was _____."

This is on page 19, and has the caveat that "illegible manuscript" are shown as blanks.

I have shown that Lizzie's statements under oath (which these witness statements are not- they are more an informal re-telling or recounting)- show that she last saw Abbie in the dining room.

Her story is that she got up "a few minutes before nine," possibly about "quarter" to nine. She spoke to Abbie in the dining room who was dusting, also saw her father in the sitting room and then in the kitchen, saw Bridget "just come in the back door with the long pole, brush;" she went down to the cellar, for somewhere between 2 and 5 minutes, and when she came back upstairs she never saw Abbie again. Lizzie says the guest room door was closed, and says Abbie wanted it kept closed. This doesn't have any context as to when it was shut or seen shut by Lizzie. It also doesn't mean that the door was not closed when Lizzie got up nor does it mean the room was finished even if the door was shut.
(Again, this is based on evaluating Lizzie at sworn inquest, not what may be in the witness statements).

Lizzie says Abbie told her the bed had been made "fresh"- and Lizzie never says she saw Abbie in the guest room. What was done by Abbie to or in the guest room, or what was still needing to be done in there, was told her by Abbie when she, Lizzie, came down.

--Kat

[Allen]

Fleet's notes in the Witness Statements cannot be wholly relied upon. Someone filled in illegible words and we end up with what Harry posted.
In William's Casebook Fleet's original and "handwritten" notes say:
"Lizzie said that she had not seen Mrs. Borden since about 9 o'clock She thought _____Bedroom when she was _____."

This is on page 19, and has the caveat that "illegible manuscript" are shown as blanks.

I have shown that Lizzie's statements under oath (which these witness statements are not- they are more an informal re-telling or recounting)- show that she last saw Abbie in the dining room.

I have my doubts that Lizzie's testimony is to be relied upon due to the fact of how many times she changed her story, and she may have been the murderer and had every reason to lie.

[snokkums]

Another WILD possibility is that Sarah Whitehead had written the note and deliberately did not say so because she wanted Lizzie to swing from a hangman's noose when she saw things looking grim for Lizzie. Remote chance, - yes- but there was no love lost between those two women. Rather than looking for enemies of Andrew, I have always thought they should have looked for enemies of Lizzie.

What a great explanation! Really! Murderess Lizzie could not inherit, more money in the pot for Abby's heirs.

That would explain why Abby did not change into a more formal dress. Brown says this was to visit a lower-status person; he brings out the later death of William Bassett's daughter.

Brown used Uncle John's activities that night to explain the cover-up, etc. I still believe Brown, but that was a good idea.

I like that senario, but to freshen my memory, who is Sarah Whitehead. She could have written that note, but never came forword. What was the
bad blood between the two ladies?

[Shelley]

Sarah was Abby's half-sister. There was a very large age difference but Abby was devoted to her. The Whiteheads, you will recall, lived in one half of that 4th Street house which caused all the trouble, Abby's father's (Oliver Gray) residence. Jane Gray sold out her half and Sarah wanted it but could not afford to buy it out. Andrew probably thought it was a savvy real estate move to procure it- too bad he was not up front about it with Emma and Lizzie. He had to give them the Ferry St. house to placate the pair. They sold it back to him for 5000$ two weeks before the murders.Sarah actually called her daughter Little Abbie. Sarah's house was one of the few places Abby would go when she was out and about. Sarah said she did not visit the Borden house when Lizzie and Emma were at home as she was not treated well by "the girls". There was no love lost.

It would have been a likely thing for Sarah to have sent for Abby to babysit or to come over. I often wondered if Sarah had sent such a note, then decided not to try to help get Lizzie "off the hook" deliberately as she detested her and may have thought she might help send Abby's killer to the gallows. Surely Sarah had heard plenty from Abby about how rotten those two girls were to her at the house. It is just a possible scenario- maybe Sarah might even think she might get a portion of Abby's inheritance if Lizzie were executed. Hard to know, but I suspect Lizzie had a few enemies, with her personality.

[Kat]

How do we know that Sarah detested Lizzie? We have statements made that Abbie kept a lot of things to herself. I don't think it is obvious that Abbie complained to the Whitehead family. Maybe she didn't- maybe Abbie didn't want the family business known. I would think that if they were a religious people, they might not have gossiped much at all.
Sarah Whitehead said that she thought the girls felt they were above her, but that might not necesarilly mean that Sarah cared much about what Lizzie thought of her. She said she did not know much more than "a stranger would."

[Kat]

Fleet's notes in the Witness Statements cannot be wholly relied upon. Someone filled in illegible words and we end up with what Harry posted.
In William's Casebook Fleet's original and "handwritten" notes say:
"Lizzie said that she had not seen Mrs. Borden since about 9 o'clock She thought _____Bedroom when she was _____."

This is on page 19, and has the caveat that "illegible manuscript" are shown as blanks.

I have shown that Lizzie's statements under oath (which these witness statements are not- they are more an informal re-telling or recounting)- show that she last saw Abbie in the dining room.

<I have my doubts that Lizzie's testimony is to be relied upon due to the fact of how many times she changed her story, and she may have been the murderer and had every reason to lie.>--Allen

Yes I understand, but I am looking at Lizzie as being innocent for a change and testing her statements under oath, which is harder to do. Of course anyone could have been lying that day after all.

[Smudgeman]

I think if you are innocent, your "story" is not going to change. There would be no reason to change your story or alter it in any way if one was totally innocent.

[Kat]

I don't know. On TV they say the person who sticks to their story is not innocent, but personally I am not sure. It is assumed that because of human nature a story would change and alter as more things were recalled. A fixed story seems suspicious- but an expert might know.

[Shelley]

In reference to the purchase of the house by Andrew: (From Doherty & Harrington)
The bold type is my own highlighting. Mrs. George Whitehead:

" This the girls did not like; and they showed their feelings on the street by not recognizing me.. Lizzie did not like Mrs. Borden."

Notes of Edwin D. McHenry
"The following is the result of my interview last Saturday night with Mrs. Whitehead. I could not reach her mother, Mrs. Oliver Gray.... until today. I found her at the home of Mr. Benj. Covell at the top of Second Street. I questioned her at length as to whether there was anything new that had come to her mind since she was last seen. She stated that Officer Harrington had been to see her, but since that time she had heard a great deal. She also stated that Mr. and Mrs. Case had gone to Tiverton, RI or Little Compton to remain away until after the Borden case had been disposed of, and that Mrs. Case was the woman above all others that was needed to let light in on Lizzie's actions. Mrs. Gray had heard of the scandal story as coming from Mrs. Case direct. She also stated that for years, whenever she, or any of Mrs. Borden's relatives visited the house on Second street, they were totally ignored by the girls, Lizze and Emma. She (Mrs. Gray) said that was true, every word of it, although she could not imagine who the writer was and that her sister, Mrs. Borden, Mrs. Fish in Hartford was the one, and her daughter in law, that was referred to. I then pressed the old lady very hard as to what was said as coming from Mrs. Churchill. She demurred and finally admitted she got her information from Mrs. Potter and her sister Miss Dimon, the milliners on Fourth Street. I then looked up the above mentioned ladies and found them very hard people to handle. I was with them two hours and elicited the following; Lizzie Borden has been practicing in the gynasium for a long time and has boasted of the strength she possessed, not to these people, but to others. "

Having one beloved sister myself, eleven years younger, I could understand how I would feel about anyone mistreating or ignoring my sister. It would have been unbecoming and "Unchristian" in a very religious time to come right out and say "I hate her guts" about Lizzie, but I strongly suspect and would count on Sarah Whitehead not harboring any loving feelings towards Lizzie and Emma. And who could blame her? Why should Sarah lift a finger to help Lizzie who had been brutal to her, and unkind to Abby? Abby and Jane Gray were Sarah's dearest female companions and relatives. If Sarah thought Lizzie had killed her sister, she would relish watching her twist in the wind! And I bet more than just the two milliner ladies knew the scoop- women quietly gossiped about that situation, even if they DID leave town to keep from speaking ill of Lizzie to the police, or as Mrs. Churchill did- held her tongue about what she saw. Too many people knew things and said little.

[Kat]

This shows that there was a dislike on the part of Lizzie & Emma for the Whitehead side of the family. This we knew. Even Mrs. Tripp said that Lizzie complained about Abbie in the past- and we have testimony that Lizzie had called Abbie a "mean old thing" from Mrs. Gifford.
We have testimony from Mrs. Whitehead, which I will post.
But we don't have Sarah Whitehead saying that Abbie told her things about the private Borden business. She may have, but it would be an interesting character trait of Abbie if she did not speak ill of her stepdaughters- possibly from respect for her spouse. It's just a different view- a possibility- something to contemplate. After the murders it's very possible Sarah would grow to "detest"(your word) those girls.
Also, consider the source of that statement you posted. That is Mr. McHenry writing that, and he has not earned any respect himself in this whole investigation. In fact, he was rather tarnished. The date of the statement might also be significant.

You've left out the sentence:
After "...they were totally ignored by the girls, Lizzie and Emma. I then read your anonymous letter to her."

What do we infer from the phrase "the scandal story?"- and we don't know the date of this either.

And the last few sentences are also left out.

Here is Mrs. Whitehead at the Inquest under oath:

Inquest
156
SARAH B. WHITEHEAD.

Q. (Mr. Knowlton) What is your name?
A. Sarah B. Whitehead.
Q. Miss or Mrs.?
A. Mrs.
Q. Where do you live
A. 45 Fourth street.
Q. Were you there the day of the tragedy, the day of the murder?
A. No Sir, I was out of town.
Q. Where were you that day?
A, I went to Rocky Point.
Q. Are you connected, or related in any way to Mr. or Mrs. Borden?
A. Mrs. Borden was my half sister.
Q. The same father, or the same mother?
A. The same father.
Q. What was your father's name?
A Oliver Gray.
Q. Her mother, I take it, was the first wife, and yours, the second?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Were there other sisters or half sisters?
A. There is one half sister to me, and own sister to Mrs. Borden.
Q. What is her name?
A. Priscilla Fish; she lives in Hartford.
Q. Were you well acquainted with the daughters, Emma and Lizzie?
A. Well, yes I was well acquainted with them.
Q. Were you on congenial terms with them?
A. Well, I dont know as I was. I never thought they liked me.
Q. Not on particularly friendly terms then?
A. No. I always thought they felt above me.
Q. Did you know anything about the relations between Miss Lizzie and your half sister, Mrs. Borden?
A. I dont, for I never went there, very seldom, on account of those girls.
Q. Were you not on good terms with your half sister?
A. Very good, more so, than anybody in the world.
Q. I did not know but you would go there to see her?
A. I did occasionally.
Q. Did she come to your house?
A. Yes Sir, she came very often.
Q. Did she seem to be on good terms with her daughters?
A. She never used to say but very little about them; she was a woman that kept everything to herself.
Q. Was there some little friction about property, that you knew about?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Did not Mr. Borden buy out somebody, buy you out?
A. He bought out my mother's share of the estate.
Q. What did he do with it?

157

A. He gave it to my sister.
Q. That is, Mrs. Borden, his wife?
A. Yes Sir, I dont know whether he bought it, or she bought it.
Q. Did your sister have property of her own, some?
A. I dont know how much she had.
Q. She had some?
A. I dont know whether she had other personal property or not. I suppose she did, but I dont know.
Q. This that was bought out, and given to Mrs. Borden, was your mother's interest?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What is it in, real estate or personal property'
A. It is real estate.
Q. Where is it?
A. It is the house I live in.
Q. What is the value of it, about?
A. Well, I think when it was sold, it brought $3000.
Q. It already belonged to the three of you?
A. No, my father left half to me, and half to my mother; and my mother sold her part to my sister.
Q. Your sister, Mrs. Borden?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. So it then belonged to your sister and you?
A. Yes Sir. She bought it to keep in in the family.
Q. It now stands so, that is, to the estate of your sister, and you? You dont know what was paid for your mother's half?
A. I think she paid $1500.
Q. You say she paid it, you dont know whether she paid it or Mr. Borden?
A. I dont know whether it was her money or his money.
Q. Someone's money paid for it?
A. Yes.
Q. The deed was taken right from your mother to Mrs. Borden?
A. I suppose it was.
Q. How long ago was that?
A. It dont seem more than four or five years ago. I know my father has been dead 14 years. It dont seem to me my mother kept that property long in her hands. It was as long as four or five years ago.
Q. Is there any other fact about this matter that you can enlighten us about?
A. No, there is not.
Q. You dont know anything about it at all?
A. No, I dont know much more than a stranger would.
Q. Do you know anything about whether your sister left a will?
A. I do not.
Q. Did she ever speak about a will?
A. Never.
Q. So far as you know she did not leave any?
A. She never told me that she made one. I dont know anything about it.

[Shelley]

Well, thanks for saving me a lot of typing on the Inquest statement above.

I took the "scandal" story to mean the business about the house on Fourth Street. And it must have been quite a big deal for Andrew to have to placate the girls by giving them the Ferry Street house. This would have been public and published knowledge too as notice of deed transfer would become public information. I can well imagine tongues wagging about "those girls" and what their father had to do to get some peace in a time when the father and men in general were the kingpins and head of family, not to be questioned in matters of business.

I also cannot imagine Abby, no matter how patient, Christian and long-suffering she was, never mentioning a word of what things were like in that house to her half-sister. Human nature has not changed so very much in 114 years- and women talk. I am sure if everybody who kept back little details and insights had come forth and told all they knew about the dynamics in that house, it would not be a pretty picture. Although I am aware of the shady aspects of the McHenry business, I think his notes have a ring of real truthfulness. I wonder why Mrs. Case was not more rigorously pursued for questioning.

To be associated with scandal, notoriety and the police, was then, something to be avoided, and it is easy to see why many who might have said far more, did not. I can even hear some imaginary conversations between husbands and wives something like "Don't be getting yourself mixed up in that business. Keep your thoughts to yourself-do you want to be called up in court to testify?"! Murder is a sordid business.

[RayS]

I think if you are innocent, your "story" is not going to change. There would be no reason to change your story or alter it in any way if one was totally innocent.

According to a true-crime book I read some time ago, a guilty person will make up a cover story and stick to it. Since he/she can't cover everything, something will eventually not match. Or as Columbo said "just one more thing".

If Lizzie and Bridget told the same or matching stories, that would indicate some collusion. Hence some sort of guilt.

You can "look it up" in any book on criminal or police procedure. But such info is seldom availabe to the public, except in a lawyer's book.

[RayS]

How do we know that Sarah detested Lizzie? We have statements made that Abbie kept a lot of things to herself. I don't think it is obvious that Abbie complained to the Whitehead family. Maybe she didn't- maybe Abbie didn't want the family business known. I would think that if they were a religious people, they might not have gossiped much at all.
Sarah Whitehead said that she thought the girls felt they were above her, but that might not necesarilly mean that Sarah cared much about what Lizzie thought of her. She said she did not know much more than "a stranger would."

I think a number of writers have mentioned the ill-will between Abby's family and Lizzie (and Emma) dating back to the 1887 gift of that house.

Robert Sullivan mentions this in his book; he used the statements from Abby Borden Whitehead Potter as a reference (Abby's niece, who was supposed to go over there that day while her Mom was at that picnic).

[Kat]

I was looking at what Lil' Abby had to say about the whole thing, yesterday morning.

Shelley, your foundation for why you feel strongly about what negative things the Whithead family may have felt towards those girls may come from Lil' Abby, I'm thinking. It's probably incorporated into your over-all sense and feel of the dynamics.

Li' Abby Potter did speak out in Yankee magazine (age 82!) in 1966, and then to Robert Sullivan which was just before she died. She was pretty old by then tho, and her memories may have been tainted thru time, rumors, other stories co-mingled, and the after-effects of the murders upon her family. (The little money they recouped, etc.) She was 8 when the tragedy happened. I was just thinking about what I was aware of at age 8- and there was no family trouble I recall, but I knew there was a fight with a neighbor going on. Of course, I don't know what it was, but I do know it wasn't murder!

Rebello, 499:

"'Quips, Quotes, and Queries,' Yankee Magazine, November / 1966: 239."

The murdered Abby Borden was my mother's half-sister and I am her namesake. I
remember Abby very well and I also was one of the twelve at the funeral of the murdered couple. My aunt and my mother were very close and she always told my mother things no one else knew - especially how mad Lizzie Borden was when she heard that her father, Andrew, had given my Grandma's share of the old homestead on Fourth Street in Fall River to my mother. There is the motive - Lizzie was money mad.

Abby B. Potter
Providence, R.I.

"Note [by Rebello]: This letter was sent to Yankee Magazine after the publication of The Unfathomable Borden Riddle. Several other letters were sent to the publishers of Yankee Magazine in response to that article."

"Also: Ayotte, John U., 'The Unfathomable Borden Riddle,' Mysterious New England, Austin N. Stevens, ed., Dublin, NH: Yankee, Inc., 1971, 56-67."

"When Lizzie Borden Took an Axe ...," Providence Evening Bulletin, January 17, 1969: 1."

"Mrs. Abby (Whitehead) Potter was eight years old at the time of the Borden murders. She discussed her recollections of August 4, 1892. Mrs. Potter believed Lizzie had planned to kill the Bordens as she feared Abby would inherit Andrew's estate. She remembered her aunt Abby as friendly, weighed about 200 pounds and was always kind to her mother."

"'A Borden Kin Remembers: She Was An Outsider," Providence Evening Bulletin, January 17, 1969: 8."

"Mrs. Abby (Whitehead) Potter, niece of Abby Borden, described Lizzie as an outsider, a big, mannish woman that people were afraid of."

"Mrs. Potter's mother told her Lizzie killed her own cat by chopping off the cat's head."

"When Mrs. Potter was working for a cleaner, Lizzie had come in to pay a bill. I didn't look at her, but I signed my name on the receipt. She knew who I was all right, but she didn't say a thing."

"Note: Mrs. Abby B. Potter died May 9, 1974, in Warwick, Rhode Island. She was the daughter of Abby Borden's half-sister, Sarah B. (Gray) Whitehead. She was survived by a nephew and a niece. Mrs. Potter was interviewed in 1972 by Robert Sullivan, author of Goodbye Lizzie Borden. The interview provides another view of the Bordens, especially Lizzie."

"Sources
Providence Journal-Bulletin, May 10, 1974: B2.
Sullivan, Robert, 'The Bordens and the Town,' Goodbye Lizzie Borden, Brattleboro, VT: Stephen Greene Press, 1974, 4-24."

--This is all from Rebello, 499-500. I included in this transcription the opinion of Lil' Abby about Lizzie's appearance. I think it shows a prejudice, which I take into account when I consider her opinion.
The cat chopping story is inexplicable.