Another look at Bridget

[Angel]

Yes, my thought was that if the parlor were unlocked , it would be ideal for hiding, keeping track of who was where in the house (footsteps going upstairs and in the guestroom are clearly heard from the parlor) and then it would be handy for walking out the front door. .

How? It was locked on the inside. An intruder couldn't have locked it on his way out.

[Yooper]

The parlor would be an ideal place to keep track of the household under those conditions, but how would an intruder know that Bridget would not wash the inside of the parlor windows? He would probably be aware that she was washing them on the outside, even if she wasn't looking into the room.

[Shelley]

It's all a moot point actually, as I do not believe there was an intuder. This was purely an academic exercise in if there had been one, what would have been the best place to hide. I thought the front door had a slide bolt, which could be easily manipulated from the inside, and a spring lock, which would be able to be opened from the inside, but once outside, the door would click and set the lock again. Yes, if the KEY had to be in the lock, then exit by an intruder from the front would pose a problem. When Bridget let Andrew in, I am trying to recall if she had to turn a key.

An intruder could not know that Bridget would not wash the inside parlor windows. But the intruder could have left the parlor when she came in had she done so, hid in the front hall, or sitting room closet until she left the parlor, then stepped back inside the parlor to wait until Andrew was prone on the sofa. I am also wondering if the pantry in the kitchen was locked -probably not. The pantry would have afforded a comfy waiting spot with a view of whoever came in the side door, which was after all, the usual door for family use during the daytime. With breakfast finished and lunch not until noon, chances are nobody would be going in the pantry for anything until 11:30 at the earliest.

[Yooper]

I seem to remember buttons on the lock face surface of the old skeleton-key locksets. They were just below the bolt facing the strike plate when the door was closed. Does anyone recall the purpose of these buttons, I can't quite remember what it was?

[Yooper]

It's all a moot point actually, as I do not believe there was an intuder. This was purely an academic exercise in if there had been one, what would have been the best place to hide. I thought the front door had a slide bolt, which could be easily manipulated from the inside, and a spring lock, which would be able to be opened from the inside, but once outside, the door would click and set the lock again. Yes, if the KEY had to be in the lock, then exit by an intruder from the front would pose a problem. When Bridget let Andrew in, I am trying to recall if she had to turn a key.

An intruder could not know that Bridget would not wash the inside parlor windows. But the intruder could have left the parlor when she came in had she done so, hid in the front hall, or sitting room closet until she left the parlor, then stepped back inside the parlor to wait until Andrew was prone on the sofa. I am also wondering if the pantry in the kitchen was locked -probably not. The pantry would have afforded a comfy waiting spot with a view of whoever came in the side door, which was after all, the usual door for family use during the daytime. With breakfast finished and lunch not until noon, chances are nobody would be going in the pantry for anything until 11:30 at the earliest.

I agree, the intruder story is pretty far-fetched. The academic exercises are helpful as support for that conclusion! If we consider an intruder's mindset, any hiding place might be discovered, whether a room or a closet. The intruder was holding all the cards (hatchets?) upon discovery, and after Abby had been killed there was nothing more to lose if caught. Under those conditions, why not be comfortable in the parlor rather than riding the carpet sweeper in the closet?

[Shelley]

You brought back a buried memory Yooper about the buttons on the lock plate. I had not thought about that in 40 years. Now I am reading up on locks to try and remember what it was all about. I recall pushing those buttons though!

[Yooper]

I seem to remember being able to close the door and having it lock without the need for a key when leaving the house. Otherwise, you would need to lock the door with a key from the outside. Kind of an automatic/manual thing. It has been a long time, though, I may be wrong.

[Shelley]

Hmm- then if that is true, an intruder could have sauntered nonchalantly through the front door, having reset the lock from the inside before leaving.

[Harry]

Yes, the door did self-lock. This is Police Officer Albert Chase's remarks in the Witness Statements (page 42)

"Fall River, August 17, 1892. During the past thirteen days I have been on duty at the Borden house at the front door. During all this time the front door locked every time it was closed. No one has been ever admitted without first ringing the bell. Several times the people who were inside, have stepped out to speak to me, and the door would close, and lock them out, and they would have to ring to get in. I have tried the door a great many times, and always found it locked. Have seen a great many other people try to get in before ringing the. bell, but the door was always locked. I have never seen anyone get in without being let in by someone from the inside."

However, Officer Allen stated that the bolt was in place when he examined the door on the morning of the 4th.

One other thing. Uncle John had the lock changed on the front door. Have to find out if it was one lock or locks (plural) and when.

[Yooper]

Yes, the sliding bolt could not be manipulated from the outside, regardless of the other locks. Officer Allen stated that all of the locks were in use at the time he first arrived. Andrew likely locked them all after Bridget let him in.

[Shelley]

Aha- so then the "intruder" would have had quite a job sliding that bolt from the outside. Looks like he would have had to have used the cellar door or the screen door to escape and have taken the chance of bumping into Lizzie coming back from the barn or of getting past old hawkeye Addie Churchill and her niece Mrs. Cheetam who seem to spend plenty of time looking out their window.

There was one Agatha Christie mystery or maybe it was Sherlock Holmes where a killer found an ingenious way of sliding a bolt from the outside-had to do with a bit of wire or string I think. I suppose our theoretical intruder might have dropped out a window -but that would have drawn even more attention- and it is quite a tumble to the ground from the first storey.

[Yooper]

Exactly! That was my point about using the rear door rather than the front door. An intruder would be recognized as such more easily by those familiar with the household. People on the street are less likely to be family members or neighbors. It is a risk using either escape route, but far less conspicuous exiting directly to the street than running through yards and hopping fences.

[Shelley]

And of course there was that high backyard fence with barbed wire to contend with, the men in Crowe's yard lounging about with eyes peeled, Lucie loitering around Chagnon's porch on the lookout, and Mrs. Kelly or her maid on the southside. In the good old days before television and computer distractions, folks had a lot of time to mind other people's business and keep an idle eye out the window. Must have been fun.

[RayS]

Aha- so then the "intruder" would have had quite a job sliding that bolt from the outside. Looks like he would have had to have used the cellar door or the screen door to escape and have taken the chance of bumping into Lizzie coming back from the barn or of getting past old hawkeye Addie Churchill and her niece Mrs. Cheetam who seem to spend plenty of time looking out their window.

There was one Agatha Christie mystery or maybe it was Sherlock Holmes where a killer found an ingenious way of sliding a bolt from the outside-had to do with a bit of wire or string I think. I suppose our theoretical intruder might have dropped out a window -but that would have drawn even more attention- and it is quite a tumble to the ground from the first storey.

Any Intruder would have no problem if he was a Secret Visitor who was being let in secretly to avoid notice. Like how he resembled Andy, for instance.
Once you accept this, everything falls into place. Most murders take place in the home, and involve family or friends who know each other.
You can look up the statistics on this.

Arnold Brown's book does not go into much detail about this, but it is the crux of the solution to this unsolved murder.
Some of Ann Rule's short stories mention this.

[theebmonique]

Ann Rule mentions Arnold Brown's idea about the Borden murders ?





Tracy...

[RayS]

Ann Rule mentions Arnold Brown's idea about the Borden murders ?

Tracy...

That is a deliberate misquotation. But I expected that.
Ann Rule's book of short stories will tell you that when no one in the home did it (all were killed) then it had to be an intruder.

There is one story where a wife was preparing Thanksgiving dinner for her relatives. When they showed up she was missing. The husband at work (not eveyone works 9 to 5).
The police found persons who had seen a stranger in the apartment house. One woman answered the door, and he left when he saw her husband at home. You can read and learn.

[Shelley]

Just for the record, as I see Ray is here, and I am sure is mentioning Secret Visitors and Arnold Brown and probably looking things up, getting a world class education, etc., this intruder speculation I have been having fun with thus far today, does not in any way have a single thing to do with Brown, his book, Billy Borden or any of that particular theory. Todd Lunday pretty much covered the same ground we did- and more eloquently expressed as well.

[Yooper]

Aha- so then the "intruder" would have had quite a job sliding that bolt from the outside. Looks like he would have had to have used the cellar door or the screen door to escape and have taken the chance of bumping into Lizzie coming back from the barn or of getting past old hawkeye Addie Churchill and her niece Mrs. Cheetam who seem to spend plenty of time looking out their window.

There was one Agatha Christie mystery or maybe it was Sherlock Holmes where a killer found an ingenious way of sliding a bolt from the outside-had to do with a bit of wire or string I think. I suppose our theoretical intruder might have dropped out a window -but that would have drawn even more attention- and it is quite a tumble to the ground from the first storey.

Any Intruder would have no problem if he was a Secret Visitor who was being let in secretly to avoid notice. Like how he resembled Andy, for instance.
Once you accept this, everything falls into place. Most murders take place in the home, and involve family or friends who know each other.
You can look up the statistics on this.

Arnold Brown's book does not go into much detail about this, but it is the crux of the solution to this unsolved murder.
Some of Ann Rule's short stories mention this.

I wonder if a Secret Visitor would have knocked or used the door bell to be let in? Or maybe that's a secret?

[Shelley]

Well, at least it is reassuring to be right from time to time in one's predictions....

[RayS]

Just for the record, as I see Ray is here, and I am sure is mentioning Secret Visitors and Arnold Brown and probably looking things up, getting a world class education, etc., this intruder speculation I have been having fun with thus far today, does not in any way have a single thing to do with Brown, his book, Billy Borden or any of that particular theory. Todd Lunday pretty much covered the same ground we did- and more eloquently expressed as well.

But "Todd Lunday" used "Nobody" to mock Lizzie's claims of innocence. It was practically impossible for any Unknown Subject to get into the house and stay there w/o notice. Yes, even if they did testify how someone could have been hidden.

Note how all the objections melt away once you suppose that this stranger was there by invitation, but his presence had to be kept secret at almost all costs. I just tried to provide a rational explanation for what had no rational explanation.

In "Silver Blaze" the reverse situation was the answer: it was not an intruder, but someone from the household. Once that is accepted, the solution becomes obvious. Do we agree here?

[theebmonique]

Ann Rule mentions Arnold Brown's idea about the Borden murders ?

Tracy...

That is a deliberate misquotation. But I expected that.
Ann Rule's book of short stories will tell you that when no one in the home did it (all were killed) then it had to be an intruder.

There is one story where a wife was preparing Thanksgiving dinner for her relatives. When they showed up she was missing. The husband at work (not eveyone works 9 to 5).
The police found persons who had seen a stranger in the apartment house. One woman answered the door, and he left when he saw her husband at home. You can read and learn.

It was very much NOT a deliberate misquotation, but an honest question which seems to have caused some paranoia. That was not my intention. I was questioning the following EXACT QUOTE:

Arnold Brown's book does not go into much detail about this, but it is the crux of the solution to this unsolved murder.
Some of Ann Rule's short stories mention this.

Tracy...

[RayS]

Aha- so then the "intruder" would have had quite a job sliding that bolt from the outside. Looks like he would have had to have used the cellar door or the screen door to escape and have taken the chance of bumping into Lizzie coming back from the barn or of getting past old hawkeye Addie Churchill and her niece Mrs. Cheetam who seem to spend plenty of time looking out their window.

There was one Agatha Christie mystery or maybe it was Sherlock Holmes where a killer found an ingenious way of sliding a bolt from the outside-had to do with a bit of wire or string I think. I suppose our theoretical intruder might have dropped out a window -but that would have drawn even more attention- and it is quite a tumble to the ground from the first storey.

Any Intruder would have no problem if he was a Secret Visitor who was being let in secretly to avoid notice. Like how he resembled Andy, for instance.
Once you accept this, everything falls into place. Most murders take place in the home, and involve family or friends who know each other.
You can look up the statistics on this.

Arnold Brown's book does not go into much detail about this, but it is the crux of the solution to this unsolved murder.
Some of Ann Rule's short stories mention this.

I wonder if a Secret Visitor would have knocked or used the door bell to be let in? Or maybe that's a secret?

I wasn't there with a videotape. But I remember reading that somebody came to the front door and Andy answered it. No one admitted to seeing who was there. If this person was let in and told to hide in the upstairs guest room that would solve that. Or any logical faults here?

[RayS]

Exactly! That was my point about using the rear door rather than the front door. An intruder would be recognized as such more easily by those familiar with the household. People on the street are less likely to be family members or neighbors. It is a risk using either escape route, but far less conspicuous exiting directly to the street than running through yards and hopping fences.

It would take only about a dozen seconds to walk from the back door to the sidewalk. (You can time this.)
Anyone who was questioned could say they were looking for Dr. Kelly, or, somebody on the next block. "I don't know the number, just the name."
Not too mention any higher amount of illiteracy.

[Shelley]

Now here's a twist -Billy Borden bumps into our "Intruder" hiding in the parlor. Naw...just kidding- don't go there, we may all have apoplexy.
..Dodging tomatoes...

[Yooper]

Any Intruder would have no problem if he was a Secret Visitor who was being let in secretly to avoid notice. Like how he resembled Andy, for instance.
Once you accept this, everything falls into place. Most murders take place in the home, and involve family or friends who know each other.
You can look up the statistics on this.

Arnold Brown's book does not go into much detail about this, but it is the crux of the solution to this unsolved murder.
Some of Ann Rule's short stories mention this.

I wonder if a Secret Visitor would have knocked or used the door bell to be let in? Or maybe that's a secret?

I wasn't there with a videotape. But I remember reading that somebody came to the front door and Andy answered it. No one admitted to seeing who was there. If this person was let in and told to hide in the upstairs guest room that would solve that. Or any logical faults here?

Only one:

Visitor: "Hi, I'm the Secret Visitor, and I'm here to kill you and your wife."

Andrew: "Oh, you're here to see Lizzie. She's upstairs, you can go right up. She'll find you a closet."

[Yooper]

Exactly! That was my point about using the rear door rather than the front door. An intruder would be recognized as such more easily by those familiar with the household. People on the street are less likely to be family members or neighbors. It is a risk using either escape route, but far less conspicuous exiting directly to the street than running through yards and hopping fences.

It would take only about a dozen seconds to walk from the back door to the sidewalk. (You can time this.)
Anyone who was questioned could say they were looking for Dr. Kelly, or, somebody on the next block. "I don't know the number, just the name."
Not too mention any higher amount of illiteracy.

The idea is to avoid being stopped and questioned, or even seen. Anyone walking away from the front door could say the same thing.

[Angel]

It was Ellen Eagen who was the intruder. She did it and then went behind the house pretending to barf.

[RayS]

I wonder if a Secret Visitor would have knocked or used the door bell to be let in? Or maybe that's a secret?

I wasn't there with a videotape. But I remember reading that somebody came to the front door and Andy answered it. No one admitted to seeing who was there. If this person was let in and told to hide in the upstairs guest room that would solve that. Or any logical faults here?

Only one:

Visitor: "Hi, I'm the Secret Visitor, and I'm here to kill you and your wife."

Andrew: "Oh, you're here to see Lizzie. She's upstairs, you can go right up. She'll find you a closet."

Afterwards Andy went to the back for an hour, then returned with a little white box. This was never found after the murders. What happened to it?
If it contained something for the Secret Visitor, it would disappear with him.

The newspapers often tell about drug deals gone bad, and one or two bodies being found afterwards.
Commerce often leads to war (WW I, II, III, etc).

Your attempts at humor add little, IMO.

[Yooper]

It was Ellen Eagen who was the intruder. She did it and then went behind the house pretending to barf.

Shhhh! It's a SECRET!!

[theebmonique]

Maybe Ms. Eagen 'secretly' snuck in and put "Lizzie's" note that called Abby out to help someone who was sick in Andrew's secret white box and then buried it after she barfed ?





Tracy...

[Yooper]

I think the white box contained magic dust and the Secret Visitor used it to make himself disappear.

[Angel]

..

[Yooper]

Maybe Ms. Eagen 'secretly' snuck in and put "Lizzie's" note that called Abby out to help someone who was sick in Andrew's secret white box and then buried it after she barfed ?





Tracy...

Or maybe she swallowed it and that caused her to barf?

[Allen]

I have been wondering how one man can so successfully take half the members which post regularly and are intelligent, articulate, well read people and reduce them to this level. How does this happen?

[Angel]

Lighten up. This forum isn't the U.S. Constitution.

Confucious says: "No matter what happens there is always someone who will take it too seriously."

[theebmonique]

For me...it's comic relief out of frustration. Conventional or by the book/chain of command methods have not worked as of yet.

I have not been "reduced" to any "level", by anyone.





Tracy...

[Smudgeman]

I have been wondering how one man can so successfully take half the members which post regularly and are intelligent, articulate, well read people and reduce them to this level. How does this happen?

Anyone who visits this forum on a regular basis knows that Ray usually deserves the responses he gets.

[Allen]

I have been wondering how one man can so successfully take half the members which post regularly and are intelligent, articulate, well read people and reduce them to this level. How does this happen?

Anyone who visits this forum on a regular basis knows that Ray usually deserves the responses he gets.

I do visit this forum quite often. I have been a very frequent visitor since I joined some time ago. I hold the utmost respect for each member here. Some of you I have come to think of as true friends. I do understand what lay behind these kinds of posts, frustration with RayS and his incessant thumping of Brown's book. While it seems ok to express ones views about RayS and his posts, it appears it may not be ok to express your views at the immaturity of some of these posts in general. I am also pretty much fed up with RayS and his "all Brown, all the time " approach to every thread that appears. I come to the forum to participate in real discussions about the Borden murders. Not this habitual tug of war, with Brown as the rope, that goes on in most of the threads anymore. Quite frankly it's why the number of my posts have dwindled. It's like tuning in to the radio to find the same song playing all the time. I have become very disappointed lately with the way things are going here. So what you all take as comic relief I see as just another note to the same tune being played over and over. RayS posts his opinions, and then sooner or later it's pretty much a free for all.

[Smudgeman]

I honestly feel the same way you do Allen, all I was saying is that Ray is going to be Ray, and we all have to find a way to deal with it. He doesn't respect anyone here.

[theebmonique]

Yes...everyone is dealing with this "situation" in his/her own way. What works for one, may not work for another. Some may choose to ignore, some may choose to email Stefani, some may choose to use humor, some may choose to not post at all, some may choose to do something else, and some may choose not to do a damn thing.

I wish there was just one answer that would "fit" and satisfy everyone.





Tracy...

[Shelley]

My suggestion that maybe Billy Borden could have bumped into our hypothetical "intruder" was purely a light-hearted bit of humor underlining a point. The point we were having such a good time mulling over was how difficult it is to believe that anyone could have hidden and not been seen by the inmates of the house. The Mystery Unveiled has the same tongue-in-cheek approach obout "X" the mysterious unseen villan, and makes plenty of good points about how many holes appear in some of the testimony and how ludicrous is the idea of "someone" stealing in to do away with Andrew under the circumstances in that house on August 4th.

I don't read Ray anymore, but his multiple posts today following my own usually say the same old things, so I wanted to make clear that all of the intruder speculations we were enjoying did not reference Billy Borden or Brown in any way. I don't subscribe to Brown's theory-but there are plenty of other threads in which to harangue that theory to death on this forum- you will never see me in any of them, but no doubt plenty of folks enjoy Brown and Co.so they have a spot to chew that rag. It is too bad though, that sooner or later any discussion gets railroaded onto the Brown track. And when that happens, humor is as good a safety valve as any.

Personally, I would LOVE to see a cartoon of all the hilarously overblown items about this case we have ever heard. Imagine Mike the Sailor, Handy's wild-eyed man staggering down the street while Ellen is barfing in the side yard, Bridget is washing windows, Phoebe is peeking out her front window looking for her daughter, various strange men are crawling in and out of closets and parlors brandishing hatchets, Hyman Lubinsky is hawking ice cream cups, Addie is poking her nose through the curtains, all along the street people are looking at carriages and horses, eyes are peeking out (big googly cartoon eyes) windows- and imagine ALL of this going on at the same time in a street scene cartoon. Second Street must have been a veritable hotbed of action and drama that day if we believe all these people who gave testimony and statements. And the best part is picturing Lizzie sitting serenely during all of this action-packed interlude in front of the hot stove in a silk Bengaline dress reading an old magazine and eating a cookie for the better part of the 9:15- 10:30 time span, stopping to trot upstairs for 5 minutes, iron a hanky or two and plop back down to address some wrappers.

Now, did anybody find out what the button on those old lockplate does? Inquiring minds need to know.

[Angel]

Shelley- you are a class act all the way. What a charming way to diffuse this off-the-track subject. Hats off to you.

[Harry]

Yes, Shelley, your description of Second Street that morning is right on and funny! A drawing would be fantastic.

When you read all the witness statements for that morning it was like someone kicked a fire ant hill. My street doesn't have that much activity (except for cars) in a month.

[Shelley]

I think we would have to draw the cartoon with the roofs off the houses so we could see inside, and probably that great line drawing with the roman numerals on various places we are so familiar with would be the ideal template. Heck, I can see a whole series. How about Officer Allen racing down the side steps, eyes bulging at what he has seen, Mr. Sawyer ambling up the street, Bridget dragging a white-faced Alice up the hill, Bowen dashing in the side door while Manning is screeching to a halt in his carriage (the horses should also have googly eyes) - old Addie fanning Lizzie furiously, Cunningham out on the street trying to cut a deal with the newspapermen for his exclusive scoop (he should look a trifle squinty and shady) "Brownie and Me" jumping up and down in the hayloft, John lounging under a pear tree looking dazed and munching a pear -oh, the possibilities are endless.

[theebmonique]

OMG...this is too funny ! I am starting to see a combination cast of Disney and Warner Bros. characters playing the parts !

Wylie Coyote just opened a case of ACME HATCHETS...





Tracy...

[Shelley]

And can you picture lanky Bugs Bunny as long, tall John Morse, walking into the diningroom and saying to Bowen,

[theebmonique]

...and Foghorm Leghorn as Marshall Hilliard:
"Well..uh...uh..well...why...a....You are suspected...Ms. Lizzah"





Tracy...

[Yooper]

I suggest that the problem in dealing with Ray only occurs if he is taken seriously.

[Shelley]

Hmm, well looking at the last few posts, I'd say we are not an overly serious bunch! Point well-taken.

But seriously, even in the midst of tragedy there are comic moments, and I do confess to being one of those people who has to sit in the back at funerals as I am prone to giggling fits. Everything strikes me as funny when I am compelled to look sober and mournful. I had an aunt (wife of my mortician Uncle) who died on the toilet. The name of the funeral home was Crappo's. It seemed like every single thing said by the minister during the funeral was so at odds with her rather peculiar scene of demise- I was choking not to laugh out loud. "In our Father's house there are many mansions, and our Dear Sister Edith was called unexpectedly to her heavenly home... etc." The hymn was "When the Roll is Called Up Yonder".

And then there was my Uncle Bert who died in his Lazy-Boy recliner whilst watching Jeopardy. They were just about to announce the Final Jeopardy answer- how infuriating never to know it! So, yes, even in tragedy , there is a comic side for all who do not take themselves too seriously. It's our ability to laugh at ourselves which keeps us sane.

[Angel]

Amen and hallelljuia, sister!