The infamous note

[Angel]

It could be possible that the note came from Mrs. Whitehead telling Abby to come (or not) Abby was supposed to be taking care of little Abby that morning so Mrs. Whitehead could go to the picnic. Her little boy could have delivered it. (Lizzie said a boy had brought it.) The reason no one stepped up to admit they sent the note could be that the information was deliberately withheld by Mrs. Whitehead. She had said that she didn't get along with Lizzie and Emma and that "they always seemed to think they were above me." So, if she believed Lizzie had killed her sister she was probably livid and full of hatred. This would have been her opportunity to get even with Lizzie - she could withhold this information because she probably do anything she could to make sure Lizzie would be convicted. If no one could find the note, who would know? And she felt justified in helping convict someone she felt had killed her beloved sister. We'll never know, but just a thought.

[FairhavenGuy]

I don't believe a note existed.

The whole idea of a note seems to be an example of Lizzie over-explaining things. According to Lizzie herself, Abby went out to the market just about daily. People did back in pre-refrigeration days. Why not just say Abby was out at the market? Abby, it seems, wasn't killed in good street clothes, so Lizzie later adds the story of asking Abby if she's going out dressed like that and Abby saying this dress is good enough. I think the whole scene is made up.

The major flaw with Lizzie's story is that if Abby had really gone out, she would not have been killed! Abby's absence in the house is first explained by her being out, but of course there's a body in the house, so Lizzie suddenly has to think she's sure she heard Abby return.

If there really had been a note, why didn't the sender follow up again when Abby didn't show up? (I mean before her body was found?)

The note is fiction. Abby never went out. She most likely died shortly after Andrew left and Bridget started washing the outdoor windows. Bridget may even have still been gabbing over the fence with the Kelley's girl when Abby hit the floor.

[bob_m_ryan]

If Lizzie knew the note came from 'little boy' Whitehead, why would she have not said so?

I tend to agree that the note was a fabrication.

[bob_m_ryan]

If Lizzie knew the note came from 'little boy' Whitehead, why would she have not said so?

I tend to agree that the note was a fabrication.

[Kat]

She had said that she didn't get along with Lizzie and Emma and that "they always seemed to think they were above me."

--quoted by Angel

Since the phrase is in quotes, to be clear, I will give here the exact quote of Mrs. Whitehead in the inquest:

I always thought they felt above me.-pg 156(63)

Mrs. Whitehead was not called to the Preliminary Hearing nor the Trial. If she knew anything, wouldn't she be called?
BTW: Is Lil' Abbie the only source for the story that Abbie was supposed to watch the children while Mrs. Whitehead went to Rocky Point?

And did Lizzie say a boy had brought a note or did someone say Lizzie said a boy had brought it?

[Kat]

I don't think a note coming or not coming- true or not true- would have changed much in this case, but I may be wrong.
But if one came calling Abbie away, it might have specified a time and then if Abbie had not yet finished her work in the house she could have been budgeting her time before she left. She wouldn't need to get groceries until around 11 A.M.ish- at least that seems about the time the other ladies in the case went to get theirs: (Mrs. Churchill and Mrs. Emery for example). Abbie might not have needed to leave until 9:30 or 10AM.
Lizzie said she didn't say she thought Abbie came in, she said she thought she had gone.

[Yooper]

The story about a note allows Lizzie to believe that Abby has left the house. It allows Abby to leave without notifying anyone that she is going, which would tend to time stamp her exit. Whether or not a note existed is a moot point where the murder is concerned, Abby never left the house regardless of any note. Lizzie also needed to appear to be unconcerned by Abby's absence from the house for most of the morning. Lizzie might be asked about about why she didn't question Abby's absence or why she didn't look for Abby in the house otherwise. A note also prevents questions from Andrew about a trip to the market or somewhere else he might have been aware of beforehand.

Lizzie needed an excuse to send Bridget and Mrs. Churchill directly to where Abby was found without wasting time chasing down the source of the note or looking in other places for her. She had to have heard Abby return. In order for Abby to return, Abby had to have been out.

Lizzie realized how incriminating it was to have heard Abby return when she clearly had no opportunity to do so, by her own admission. She needed to explain why she didn't call out to Abby in addition to Bridget, so Lizzie denied saying she heard Abby return and said she thought Abby was out. This was Lizzie's need at the time. This made liars out of both Mrs. Churchill and Bridget who consistently, from Witness Statements to Trial, said Lizzie told them she heard Abby return.

[FairhavenGuy]

And did Lizzie say a boy had brought a note or did someone say Lizzie said a boy had brought it?

I don't recall who, if anybody, said a boy brought a note, but I personally believe what others say Lizzie said more that what Lizzie says she said.

A perfect case in point is the iron/tin/lead bit. At least three people say Lizzie said she was in the barn looking for iron or tin. None of those people mention lead for sinkers at all. And it's not too easy to mistake somebody saying "iron" for "lead for sinkers." I believe that Lizzie first said she was in the barn looking for iron, probably to fix a window, and for some reason she changed her story.

Likewise I believe those who say Lizzie said she heard Abby come in. She had to have said that in order for Bridget and Mrs. Churchill to look upstairs for her rather that send people looking for her around town. Why would they decide to look up in the front room when Lizzie had been saying Abby had got a note to go out? They only would do that if Lizzie really had said that she thought she'd heard Abby return.

Whether or not there was a note or not is, in fact, quite vital to the case, because it tends to highlight Lizzie's lying.

Lizzie's story about the note, Abby being out, and Abby's alleged return changed or evolved as time went on.

Lizzie's story about why she went to the barn, what she did there, and for how long changed or evolved as time went on.

Lizzie's story about where in the house she was when Andrew came home changed or evolved in a most frustrating manner during the inquest tesitimony. As did her story about if or when she ever went upstairs that morning and why and for how long.

It does not seem that these changing stories are the result of others misremembering or misquoting Lizzie. Nobody's misremembering or misquoting her inquest testimony where her story can change 180 degrees from one question to the next.

I honestly cannot trust a single word that Lizzie herself says.

[Shelley]

Oh I agree, people incriminate themselves by too much chitchat. Saying what people expect or want to hear can be a great downfall if you cannot keep what you told to whom straight. As other stories of that day came out, Lizzie would have had to embroider her tale.

I think the note was initially to keep Andrew from looking for his wife when he came home. Later, it seemed a perfect explanation of how Lizzie could have been inside the house nearly 2 hours and NEVER have seen Abby during that time or wondered where she was. The house is not that large and with rooms opening off each other , it would have been a neat trick for Abby to have been "invisible" to Lizzie all that time.

[FairhavenGuy]

Shelley hits the nail on the head!

The "note" only exists to suit Lizzie's needs. Nobody else saw or knew anything about a note except from Lizzie.

[Yooper]

I think the note was a premeditated explanation as to why Lizzie was not suspicious of Abby's apparent absence from the house for two hours. This would be needed even if she wasn't able to kill Andrew. It also prevented Andrew from searching for Abby when he returned. We must remember that for a short time, Lizzie didn't know she would have the opportunity to kill Andrew. She had to behave in a manner which would benefit her if Andrew remained alive. Maybe an examination of Lizzie's options at the moment she told Andrew that Abby had a note is warranted. What were her intentions at that exact moment?

[FairhavenGuy]

Abby was dead upstairs and Bridget was no longer outside washing windows when Andrew came home.

Lizzie had already mentioned a note to Bridget I think. That would explain Abby's early departure from the scene. She mentioned the note to Andrew as soon as he got in.

I think Yooper's idea of looking at that time period from Bridget's return indoors to Andrew's death is important.

Lizzie had made an attempt at getting Bridget to go to Sargent's for some fabric, but Bridget had made no move to leave.

IF Bridget became an accomplice, it might have been during this time. Lizzie might have got Andrew settled on the sofa and then followed Bridget upstairs to lay out what happened. Their options were baking Abby into meat pies or doing something else. . .

IF Bridget was in on it, Lizzie really didn't have to mention the whole note thing to Mrs. Churchill, though. She could have announced that somebody came in and killed both Abby and Andrew. The fact that Lizzie kept up the note ruse to explain Abby's absence may indicate that Bridget was not in on the plan at that point. (She still might have helped later.)

[Tina-Kate]

Their options were baking Abby into meat pies or doing something else. . .

Reading this as I am at work at the church & at this moment the ladies are downstairs making such pies!

I too agree, the note was a fabrication.

Oooh...I'd better correct myself...the pies are NOT being made from humans...I hope!

[Harry]

What note?

[diana]

And did Lizzie say a boy had brought a note or did someone say Lizzie said a boy had brought it?

I can't find anything about a boy in Lizzie's testimony. It's Emma who brings a boy into the picture:

"I asked her if she saw any boy come with a note." (Emma, Inquest)

[Yooper]

What note?

+1

[Yooper]

Abby was dead upstairs and Bridget was no longer outside washing windows when Andrew came home.

Lizzie had already mentioned a note to Bridget I think. That would explain Abby's early departure from the scene. She mentioned the note to Andrew as soon as he got in.

I think Yooper's idea of looking at that time period from Bridget's return indoors to Andrew's death is important.

Lizzie had made an attempt at getting Bridget to go to Sargent's for some fabric, but Bridget had made no move to leave.

IF Bridget became an accomplice, it might have been during this time. Lizzie might have got Andrew settled on the sofa and then followed Bridget upstairs to lay out what happened. Their options were baking Abby into meat pies or doing something else. . .

IF Bridget was in on it, Lizzie really didn't have to mention the whole note thing to Mrs. Churchill, though. She could have announced that somebody came in and killed both Abby and Andrew. The fact that Lizzie kept up the note ruse to explain Abby's absence may indicate that Bridget was not in on the plan at that point. (She still might have helped later.)

Lizzie (and possibly Bridget) still needed an excuse for not missing Abby all morning. Lizzie might still have needed the note story because of that, and I think it is the primary reason for the story. They may have been aware that the authorities could determine time of death, and there was a two hour gap they had to account for. If Bridget was involved, she needed the note as much as Lizzie did.

Bridget testified that Lizzie spoke "very slowly" when she told Andrew of the note. Later she was uncertain about what she meant by "very slowly", she couldn't supply a frame of reference. Bridget also said that Lizzie told her directly about the note as she was going to her room, when Lizzie cautioned her to lock the side door if she went out. This might have been reinforcement for the existence of a note. Bridget had been washing windows outdoors and would probably have less reason to be concerned by Abby's absence, up to the point of Andrew's return when she had come indoors to finish the windows. Overhearing Lizzie's conversation with Andrew and the specific phrase about the note made her aware of a reason for Abby's absence without having to question it, so she didn't have to explain why she didn't question Abby's absence. The concept of "very slowly" might be Bridget's rationale for remembering that particular part of Lizzie's conversation with Andrew.

[Yooper]

Is there a reason why Bridget might need to be unaware of a note until Andrew's conversation with Lizzie? Bridget was the first person Andrew encountered when he arrived, he might have questioned Bridget about where Abby was.

[Allen]

What this "very slowly" phrase brings to mind for me, is Lizzie choosing her words very carefully.

[Yooper]

"Very slowly" might indeed mean that Lizzie was carefully choosing her words. But why could Bridget not say that when she was questioned about what she meant by "very slowly"?

[FairhavenGuy]

It could be when the Alien Mind Control kicked in for the second round. . .

[Yooper]

It could be when the Alien Mind Control kicked in for the second round. . .

That could be, slow motion and down three or four octaves "Ab...by...had...a...note...", kind of a bionic spinster mode.

[Shelley]

I always thought, if I were a maid in that house, and the mistress of the house (Abby) had gone out- I would ask myself WHY did Mrs. Borden not tell me she was going out? I can see in my mind that if Abby were going out, she would have stopped by the side of the house on her way down the street to mention this to Bridget washing the windows ,saying something like "I am going out for a while and will get some meat for the noon day meal", or "I will be back in an hour to get the mutton heated up", or "Mr. Morse may return before I get back, tell him I'll be back soon", or "Do we need anything from the store?" or any number of parting instructions. Abby did not often go out, and Bridget later assumes it must have been to see Sarah Whitehead.
No, it is all too fishy that Abby would dart out for an undetermined amount of time and say nothing about who she was going to see or when she was returning. Next time you leave your house, see how typical it is to call out a parting comment. I think the note scenario as Lizzie spouted it sounded highly unnatural , contrived and atypical.

[Yooper]

I see what you mean Shelley, a parting comment of some kind seems perfectly natural, even "I'll be back in half an hour" if nothing else. If Bridget thought the most likely place to look for Abby was at Whitehead's, given a note, and if the Whiteheads were at the police picnic that day, then it is all the more unlikely that anyone sent a note because it would have come from a less likely source.

Given no parting comment and nothing said about hearing Abby leave, Lizzie had no more reason to suspect Abby had gone than she had to suspect Abby had returned.

[Kat]

I think it was shown that Abby did go out for fresh groceries as a usual errand, like the other women of the area.
But it's interesting to imagine, the way Shelley describes it, that what Lizzie recounted to us in her testimony as to what Abbie said to her about going out- was really more likely what Abbie would say to Bridget, rather than to Lizzie.
Hmmm...
And yes I agree that a note, or a story of a note, calling Abbie away would work in favour of Bridget as well as Lizzie.

[Kat]

I seem to recall another instance of Lizzie being described as speaking slowly. I'm not going to look for it tho. If anyone stumbles upon it in their reading, let us know?

Also, thanks Diana.

[Yooper]

I also remember testimony about Abby or Andrew ordinarily doing the marketing. Abby might send Bridget for the odd item once in a while. Bridget went to the bakery for Abby on Tuesday preceding the murders for bread or rolls.

[sguthmann]

so we doubt abby would have left the house that am without saying something to bridget ...what about leaving without saying something to andrew? because isn't that what lizzie would have us believe? if abby received a note that morning, doesn't the "timeline" dictate that andrew would have been home at the time it was delivered? and so, wouldn't he most likely have been aware of "the note" and of abby going out for a bit, if she was planning to? instead, we have lizzie having to tell andrew when he returns back home later in the morning that abby received a note and went out. would this really be necessary if the events occurred as lizzie would have us believe?

another note on "the note:" not only does it help to explain why lizzie didn't think anything of abby's abrupt absence that morning, but it also helps lizzie control when and how abby's body would be found. she has abby "out" for as long as she lilkes, then can suddenly spring the, "oh, i thought i heard her come in - won't someone go see about that?" card when she's ready to have that body discovered. she controls when and how the body is discovered, and to some extent who finds the body. it's a pretty classic pattern of a certain class of murderers, really.

[Yooper]

I agree, Lizzie was in a hurry to get things over with. She told Mrs. Churchill: a) she thought Abby was dead, too (why?), b) she thought she heard Abby come in (explains (a), but when did she hear this?), and later c) she must go to the cemetery herself to make arrangements for Andrew (why would Abby not do this?). All this before she supposedly knew of Abby's death! To top it off, she sent the search party directly to where Abby lay dead!

[Kat]

Huh? Sorry- ah, I'm getting confused.
This is coming from where, please?
We've agreed that Lizzie jumped the gun on the cemetery comment before Abbie was found- but the rest - will you support that? Thanks.

(If Lizzie loved Andrew and was in shock from seeing him, and felt she was his favorite person in the family, she might think to make his funeral arrangements. She supposedly had not seen Abbie's body- her thoughts would be with her father...)

[Kat]

What if Lizzie and Bridget concocted a story about a note together? Lets them both off the hook for where Abbie was.

[shakiboo]

I think Lizzie had so little thought for Abbie before the murders, that she wouldn't even consider that Abbie would be the one to make the funeral arrangements for her husband. She didn't even think of Emma, who would have every bit as much right to do so, and possibly even more, since she was the eldest.

[Yooper]

Huh? Sorry- ah, I'm getting confused.
This is coming from where, please?
We've agreed that Lizzie jumped the gun on the cemetery comment before Abbie was found- but the rest - will you support that? Thanks.

(If Lizzie loved Andrew and was in shock from seeing him, and felt she was his favorite person in the family, she might think to make his funeral arrangements. She supposedly had not seen Abbie's body- her thoughts would be with her father...)

Lizzie thought she heard Abby return:

Mrs. Churchill, Witness Statements, Pages 11-12:
Second interview of Mrs. Churchill. Mrs. Churchill. “Must I, am I obliged to tell you all? Well, if I must I can’t be blamed. O, I wish I had not to do this. I do not like to tell anything of my neighbor; but this is as it is. When I went over in answer to Lizzie’s call, I asked ‘O, Lizzie where is your father?’ ‘In the sitting room.’ ‘Where were you?’ ‘I was in the barn looking for a piece of iron.’ ‘Where is your mother?’ ‘She had a note to see someone who is sick. I don’t know but they killed her, too.’ ‘Has any man been to see your father this morning?’ ‘Not that I know of. Dr. Bowen is not at home, and I must have a doctor. I think I heard Mrs. Borden come in.

Mrs. Churchill, Page 348, Trial:
Q. State if you please, anything that was said between Miss Lizzie Borden and yourself as soon as you reached the screen door?
A. I stepped inside the screen door and she was sitting on the second stair, at the right of the door. I put my right hand on her arm and said "Oh, Lizzie." I then said, "Where is your father?" She said, "In the sitting room." And I said, "Where were you when it happened, and, said she, "I went to the barn to get a piece of iron." I said, "Where is your mother?" She said, "I don't know; she had got a note to go see someone who is sick, but I don't know but she is killed too, for I thought I heard her come in."

Bridget, Witness Statements, Page 22:
When I returned from Miss Russell’s, I asked Lizzie if I would go to Mrs. Whitehead’s to see if Mrs. Borden was there. It was then Lizzie said, no, I think I heard her come in.”

Bridget, Page 247, Trial:
Q. What happened then?
A. "Oh," I says, "Lizzie if I knew where Mrs. Whitehead was I would go and see if Mrs. Borden was there and tell her that Mr. Borden was very sick." She says, "Maggie, I am almost positive I heard her coming in

This is what Lizzie said she heard:

Lizzie, Witness Statements, Page 4:
The servant girl said she let Mr. Borden in the front door at 10.50.
With another officer I made a hurried search of the house from attic to cellar, but found no trace of any strange person or weapon.
Lizzie said she was in the barn, and said “no, I did not hear any noise whatever.”
The work girl said she was upstairs, and heard no noise until Miss Lizzie called her.
Miss Lizzie had no suspicious on the farm hands.

Lizzie, Witness Statements, Page 5:
Miss Lizzie. “Saw father, when he returned from the P.O. He sat down to read the paper. I went out to the barn, remained twenty minutes; returned, and found him dead. Saw no one in the yard when going to or returning from the barn. Heard no noise whatever while in the barn.” (To a question.) Not even The opening or closing of the screen door. “Why not, you were but a short distance, and would hear the noise so made?” “I was upstairs in the loft.”

Lizzie, Inquest, Page 78 (35)
Q. Describe anything else you noticed at that time.
A. I did not notice anything else, I was so frightened and horrified. I ran to the foot of the stairs and called Maggie.
Q. Did you notice that he had been cut?
A. Yes; that is what made me afraid.

Lizzie directs the search to the guest room. Bridget had been to her room and Bridget and Mrs. Churchill had been to Abby and Andrew's room by now:

Bridget, Page 247, Trial:
Q. What happened then?
A. "Oh," I says, "Lizzie if I knew where Mrs. Whitehead was I would go and see if Mrs. Borden was there and tell her that Mr. Borden was very sick." She says, "Maggie, I am almost positive I heard her coming in. Won't you go up stairs to see." I said, "I am not going up stairs alone."

Mrs. Churchill, Witness Statements, Partial, Pages 11-12:
Second interview of Mrs. Churchill. Mrs. Churchill. …..
When the Doctor returned, he asked for a sheet. Bridget Sullivan, the work girl, was afraid to go up stairs alone, so I went with her. Lizzie said we would find the sheets in the dressing room, which is off of Mrs, Borden’s room. I think we waited for a key to Mrs. Borden’s room, and I think Dr. Bowen went into the sitting room to get it. If I am not mistaken, he first brought out a bunch, but the one wanted was not among them; so he went in again, and returned with a single key. We then went up stairs, and Bridget asked me if two would be enough. I said I think so, one will cover a person. But we brought down two, and gave them to Dr. Bowen. He covered Mr. Borden, and then went out. Lizzie requested the Doctor to send a telegram to her sister Emma, but not to tell her the facts, for the lady whom she is staying with, is old and feeble, and may be disturbed. Lizzie then said I wish somebody would go up stairs and try to find Mrs. Borden. So Bridget and I started.

Hopefully less "confusing" now!

[snokkums]

I don't think that a note ever existed. Reading from the book, "Goodbye Lizzie Borden", the author interviewed Little Abby (who was in her '90's at the time) and she believe fully that Lizze did it.

[Cheryl]

Yooper-that was an excellent summary! In this context it sheds a powerful light, doesn't it?

[Yooper]

Thank you Cheryl. Lizzie denied saying she heard Abby return during the Inquest, but the context of the Inquest questioning must be examined. She was grasping at straws to explain why she didn't call out to Abby after finding Andrew, and denying the above testimony from Mrs. Churchill and Bridget suited that need, in fact, it was necessary. Think about what Lizzie's denial implies about Mrs. Churchill and Bridget under the circumstances!

Thorough consideration of Lizzie's behavior just before and after "finding" Andrew is warranted.

[Kat]

You've done a good and thorough job Yooper.
Thank you for all the context. Context is indeed important and you took the time to show your sources.

But: and not to take away your good effort- it's appreciated- but you do know I have this thing about Lizzie's testimony - and we have gone head to head on this before- that what other's say Lizzie said might be different from what Lizzie said she said.
It would be harder to support what you first posted by giving only what Lizzie said herself, from her own mouth, in reply to inquest questioning.
If you do a comparison, which you getting good at- that adds context.
Originally, tho, you had not identified your statements about Lizzie in that light:

I agree, Lizzie was in a hurry to get things over with. She told Mrs. Churchill: a) she thought Abby was dead, too (why?), b) she thought she heard Abby come in (explains (a), but when did she hear this?), and later c) she must go to the cemetery herself to make arrangements for Andrew (why would Abby not do this?). All this before she supposedly knew of Abby's death! To top it off, she sent the search party directly to where Abby lay dead!

--Yooper

If one reads Lizzie's inquest testimony, which she stands by, obviously- then it would be hard to find these statements in there that you attributed to her.

[Smudgeman]

Huh? Sorry- ah, I'm getting confused.
This is coming from where, please?
We've agreed that Lizzie jumped the gun on the cemetery comment before Abbie was found- but the rest - will you support that? Thanks.

(If Lizzie loved Andrew and was in shock from seeing him, and felt she was his favorite person in the family, she might think to make his funeral arrangements. She supposedly had not seen Abbie's body- her thoughts would be with her father...)

Lizzie thought she heard Abby return:

Mrs. Churchill, Witness Statements, Pages 11-12:
Second interview of Mrs. Churchill. Mrs. Churchill. “Must I, am I obliged to tell you all? Well, if I must I can’t be blamed. O, I wish I had not to do this. I do not like to tell anything of my neighbor; but this is as it is. When I went over in answer to Lizzie’s call, I asked ‘O, Lizzie where is your father?’ ‘In the sitting room.’ ‘Where were you?’ ‘I was in the barn looking for a piece of iron.’ ‘Where is your mother?’ ‘She had a note to see someone who is sick. I don’t know but they killed her, too.’ ‘Has any man been to see your father this morning?’ ‘Not that I know of. Dr. Bowen is not at home, and I must have a doctor. I think I heard Mrs. Borden come in.

Mrs. Churchill, Page 348, Trial:
Q. State if you please, anything that was said between Miss Lizzie Borden and yourself as soon as you reached the screen door?
A. I stepped inside the screen door and she was sitting on the second stair, at the right of the door. I put my right hand on her arm and said "Oh, Lizzie." I then said, "Where is your father?" She said, "In the sitting room." And I said, "Where were you when it happened, and, said she, "I went to the barn to get a piece of iron." I said, "Where is your mother?" She said, "I don't know; she had got a note to go see someone who is sick, but I don't know but she is killed too, for I thought I heard her come in."

Bridget, Witness Statements, Page 22:
When I returned from Miss Russell’s, I asked Lizzie if I would go to Mrs. Whitehead’s to see if Mrs. Borden was there. It was then Lizzie said, no, I think I heard her come in.”

Bridget, Page 247, Trial:
Q. What happened then?
A. "Oh," I says, "Lizzie if I knew where Mrs. Whitehead was I would go and see if Mrs. Borden was there and tell her that Mr. Borden was very sick." She says, "Maggie, I am almost positive I heard her coming in

This is what Lizzie said she heard:

Lizzie, Witness Statements, Page 4:
The servant girl said she let Mr. Borden in the front door at 10.50.
With another officer I made a hurried search of the house from attic to cellar, but found no trace of any strange person or weapon.
Lizzie said she was in the barn, and said “no, I did not hear any noise whatever.”
The work girl said she was upstairs, and heard no noise until Miss Lizzie called her.
Miss Lizzie had no suspicious on the farm hands.

Lizzie, Witness Statements, Page 5:
Miss Lizzie. “Saw father, when he returned from the P.O. He sat down to read the paper. I went out to the barn, remained twenty minutes; returned, and found him dead. Saw no one in the yard when going to or returning from the barn. Heard no noise whatever while in the barn.” (To a question.) Not even The opening or closing of the screen door. “Why not, you were but a short distance, and would hear the noise so made?” “I was upstairs in the loft.”

Lizzie, Inquest, Page 78 (35)
Q. Describe anything else you noticed at that time.
A. I did not notice anything else, I was so frightened and horrified. I ran to the foot of the stairs and called Maggie.
Q. Did you notice that he had been cut?
A. Yes; that is what made me afraid.

Lizzie directs the search to the guest room. Bridget had been to her room and Bridget and Mrs. Churchill had been to Abby and Andrew's room by now:

Bridget, Page 247, Trial:
Q. What happened then?
A. "Oh," I says, "Lizzie if I knew where Mrs. Whitehead was I would go and see if Mrs. Borden was there and tell her that Mr. Borden was very sick." She says, "Maggie, I am almost positive I heard her coming in. Won't you go up stairs to see." I said, "I am not going up stairs alone."

Mrs. Churchill, Witness Statements, Partial, Pages 11-12:
Second interview of Mrs. Churchill. Mrs. Churchill. …..
When the Doctor returned, he asked for a sheet. Bridget Sullivan, the work girl, was afraid to go up stairs alone, so I went with her. Lizzie said we would find the sheets in the dressing room, which is off of Mrs, Borden’s room. I think we waited for a key to Mrs. Borden’s room, and I think Dr. Bowen went into the sitting room to get it. If I am not mistaken, he first brought out a bunch, but the one wanted was not among them; so he went in again, and returned with a single key. We then went up stairs, and Bridget asked me if two would be enough. I said I think so, one will cover a person. But we brought down two, and gave them to Dr. Bowen. He covered Mr. Borden, and then went out. Lizzie requested the Doctor to send a telegram to her sister Emma, but not to tell her the facts, for the lady whom she is staying with, is old and feeble, and may be disturbed. Lizzie then said I wish somebody would go up stairs and try to find Mrs. Borden. So Bridget and I started.

Hopefully less "confusing" now!

Very interesting Yooper! The only thing Lizzie claimed she heard was a scraping sound or a groan. How could that be attributed to Abby coming or going? Unless the scrape and groan sound was from a squeaky door? Or it was the sound of metal hitting bone, and the victim groaning???

[Kat]

Well I was going to edit my post to add again my compliments to the support Yooper gives from other witnesses- that's the way to do it! Since there was a message reply already tho, I will put it here.

[Yooper]

You're right Scott, there was also testimony from others that Lizzie heard a scraping sound or a groan, depending upon who she may have told what. The thing we need to consider is exactly what a returning Abby might sound like. Something like clomp, clomp, clomp, slam, "Bridget!", "lets get lunch started"......., or something similar. A groan might be Abby having to face life at the Borden homestead again as she walks in! A scraping sound could be Abby dragging herself in the house by the collar! I can see where both sounds might be heard! Neither one sounds much like anyone returning, let alone anyone specific.

Another consideration is a very distinct subtlety. Lizzie supposedly heard Abby "come" in, not "go" in. This seems minor, but when ordinary speech patterns are considered, it puts Lizzie in the house when Abby "came" in.

The subject of the screen door or the door spring has come up before. I suggest that someone who has lived for nearly twenty years in a given house is familiar with sounds like the screen door which would be used several times a day. It would not be described as a "scrape" or a groan", it would be described as having heard the screen door open or close!

[sguthmann]

"Kat @ Sat Jan 12, 2008 4:16 pm"You've done a good and thorough job Yooper.
Thank you for all the context. Context is indeed important and you took the time to show your sources.

But: and not to take away your good effort- it's appreciated- but you do know I have this thing about Lizzie's testimony - and we have gone head to head on this before- that what other's say Lizzie said might be different from what Lizzie said she said.

no question that the two groups of statements should be compared - what we know lizzie said from her own words, and what others said she had said to them - but there's another important point for consideration: how well do the statements of the people lizzie reportedly made statements to, or in the presence of, "jive" as to what was said?

looking at the various statements yooper so excellently compiled and posted, you can see that bridget and mrs churchill by and large recalled lizzie saying the same things. IMO, that strengthens the reliability of their testimony as to what lizzie said. i would respectfully request that one keeps that in mind too when examining the first person statements vs. heresay.

[Yooper]

You've done a good and thorough job Yooper.
Thank you for all the context. Context is indeed important and you took the time to show your sources.

But: and not to take away your good effort- it's appreciated- but you do know I have this thing about Lizzie's testimony - and we have gone head to head on this before- that what other's say Lizzie said might be different from what Lizzie said she said.
It would be harder to support what you first posted by giving only what Lizzie said herself, from her own mouth, in reply to inquest questioning.
If you do a comparison, which you getting good at- that adds context.
Originally, tho, you had not identified your statements about Lizzie in that light:

I agree, Lizzie was in a hurry to get things over with. She told Mrs. Churchill: a) she thought Abby was dead, too (why?), b) she thought she heard Abby come in (explains (a), but when did she hear this?), and later c) she must go to the cemetery herself to make arrangements for Andrew (why would Abby not do this?). All this before she supposedly knew of Abby's death! To top it off, she sent the search party directly to where Abby lay dead!

--Yooper

If one reads Lizzie's inquest testimony, which she stands by, obviously- then it would be hard to find these statements in there that you attributed to her.

Thank you for the compliment Kat, and I understand that the post could indeed be confusing if not supported.

Lizzie's Inquest testimony should definitely not be disregarded. It needs to be considered in context, she was aware that she was a suspect at the time. The testimony either side of the particular statement has to be taken as part of the context also.

[Yooper]

"Kat @ Sat Jan 12, 2008 4:16 pm"You've done a good and thorough job Yooper.
Thank you for all the context. Context is indeed important and you took the time to show your sources.

But: and not to take away your good effort- it's appreciated- but you do know I have this thing about Lizzie's testimony - and we have gone head to head on this before- that what other's say Lizzie said might be different from what Lizzie said she said.

no question that the two groups of statements should be compared - what we know lizzie said from her own words, and what others said she had said to them - but there's another important point for consideration: how well do the statements of the people lizzie reportedly made statements to, or in the presence of, "jive" as to what was said?

looking at the various statements yooper so excellently compiled and posted, you can see that bridget and mrs churchill by and large recalled lizzie saying the same things. IMO, that strengthens the reliability of their testimony as to what lizzie said. i would respectfully request that one keeps that in mind too when examining the first person statements vs. heresay.

Perhaps an additional consideration is that both Mrs. Churchill and Bridget stuck to their original statements in spite of Lizzie's denial at the Inquest. They both testified the same way at the trial, and I doubt there would be any significant difference with their testimony at the Preliminary.

[Yooper]

Kat, I realize you want Lizzie's Inquest statement denying Mrs. Churchill and Bridget's statements considered, and it is only fair to do so. Something to consider along with that is if we accept Lizzie's Inquest statement that she didn't hear Abby return and she thought Abby was still out, how do we explain Lizzie sending the search party upstairs to look for her? Bridget had specifically offered to go to Whitehead's to find her, we can imply she would go anywhere outside the house to look for her. Lizzie pointedly rejected Bridget's offer in favor of a search upstairs, and it had to be for some reason!

[Yooper]

Here is the testimony in question, from the Inquest:

Lizzie, Inquest, Page 78 (35)
Q. Describe anything else you noticed at that time.
A. I did not notice anything else, I was so frightened and horrified. I ran to the foot of the stairs and called Maggie.
Q. Did you notice that he had been cut?
A. Yes; that is what made me afraid.
Q. Did you notice that he was dead?
A. I did not know whether he was or not.
Q. Did you make any search for your mother?
A. No, sir.
Q. Why not?
A. I thought she was out of the house; I thought she had gone out. I called Maggie to go to Dr. Bowen's. When they came I said, "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is." I thought she had gone out.
Q. Did you tell Maggie you thought your mother had come in?
A. No, sir.
Q. That you thought you heard her come in?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you say to anybody that you thought she was killed up stairs?
A. No, sir.
Q. To anybody?
A. No, sir.
Q. You made no effort to find your mother at all?
A. No, sir.

Lizzie, Inquest, Page 65 (22):
Q. Had you any knowledge of her going out of the house?
A. No sir.
Q. Had you any knowledge of her going out of the house?
A. She told me she had had a note, somebody was sick, and said "I am going to get the dinner on the way," and asked me what I wanted for dinner.
Q. Did you tell her?
A. Yes, I told her I did not want anything.
Q. Then why did you not suppose she had gone?
A. I supposed she had gone.
Q. Did you hear her come back?
A. I did not hear her go or come back, but I supposed she went.
Q. When you found your father dead you supposed your mother had gone?
A. I did not know. I said to the people who came in "I don't know whether Mrs. Borden is out or in; I wish you would see if she is in her room."
Q. You supposed she was out at the time?
A. I understood so; I did not suppose anything about it.
Q. Did she tell you where she was going?
A. No sir.
Q. Did she tell you who the note was from?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you ever see the note?
A. No sir.
Q. Do you know where it is now?
A. No sir.
Q. She said she was going out that morning?
A. Yes sir.

It seems Lizzie gave the explanation for not calling out to Abby or trying to find her as she thought Abby was out and had not heard her return.

[Kat]

Yes that is correct: and notice she claims she told them to see if Mrs. Borden was in her room. That is the only upstairs Lizzie sends anyone- not to the place the body was found.
I'm glad you are including what Lizzie says she said. Thanks.

[Yooper]

Well, Bridget and Mrs. Churchill must have been completely confused about where Abby's room was, and Bridget led the way. Lizzie did not stop them from going there the way she stopped Bridget from going to Whitehead's. If we can overlook such minor discrepancies, maybe we can believe Lizzie?

[Allen]

There is another problem with Lizzie stating she told "the people coming in" to look for Mrs. Borden in her bedroom. Mrs. Churchill and Bridget had been up there to get the sheets for Dr. Bowen, which he used to cover Andrews body. Nobody mentions going to the elder Bordens bedroom, or being ask to go there, for anything other than this purpose. They would also be well aware Abby was not up there.

[Yooper]

I think it's crystal clear where Lizzie intended the search party go to find Abby. I can't contort what Bridget and Mrs. Churchill said, even iterated and reiterated in spite of Lizzie's Inquest testimony, into anything other than "go to the guest room and find Abby".

[Kat]

Yes, your construction of what Lizzie is implying, again, is in context and comparing testimonies- that's fine. As a purist in this particular instance, my stance, for clarity, is that putting that last phrase into quotes might confuse your readers.
I please only ask for carefulness in things like this.