Out darn Mutton!

[Audrey]

I wonder how soon after the deaths Lizzie and/or Emma became a bit more generous with the grocery budget.

They did have Alice staying with them for a few days and of course Uncle John. Did they order in a lovely ham or a brisket of beef?

I wonder if Lizzie ever ate mutton again???

[FairhavenGuy]

Okay. There's something that keeps bothering me about this whole mutton thing.

Obviously, we know that during the week of August 4, 1892, the Bordens had mutton and leftover mutton at least a couple of times. Why does anyone think that this is all the family ate? Why do people think that this was somehow bad?

Mutton--technically, grown up lamb--was a perfectly acceptable meat choice for much of history. Although today Americans in particular are used to the most bland flavors, many people find mutton more flavorful than lamb, just as beef is more flavorful than veal and "stewing chickens"--hens past their egg laying prime--are more flavorful than young chickens.

Harry, I think, posted a menu from a fine hotel serving mutton.

Mutton has simply fallen out of favor lately. And it's not attached to any particular holiday--does anyone eat corned beef except at St. Patrick's Day?

If the Pilgrims had slaughtered a couple of sheep in 1621, we'd all be cooking mutton dinners in a couple of weeks. As it is, they probably ate more venison than turkey at their meal with the natives, but turkey is the more blandly flavored meat, so we that's the one we celebrate with. Especially the white meat. . .

[doug65oh]

Corned beef?? Now I want a toasted Reuben sandwich!! Thanks, guy!!

'Now I sit me down to sheep,
A stew of mutton ready to eat...'
Some days chicken, others ham,
There's much to be said for 'matured' lamb.

[Audrey]

For me it is not so much the nastiness of mutton.... (Although I do find mutton nasty and never serve or eat it-- or lamb for that matter) it is the frequency in which is was served.

Maybe the Bordens did that with each and every cut of meat they bought...

When I was first married we were poor as can be and ate a lot of those icky Ramen noodles. Sometimes I would break an egg into it... BERK!

I would not eat ramen noodles today no matter what!

[william]

Mutton is usually the product of a ewe or ram over one year old. However, it is not unusual to slaughter the beasts for market when they are four or five years old. Necessarily the meat will be tougher and stronger tasting than lamb.
I only met one person who had ever consumed mutton on a regular basis
He was Welsh.
I have only eaten mutton once.
Didn't like it. It didn't taste too bad but I couldn't take the strong odor.

In defense of corned beef, I eat it frequently - but then I'm half Irish
(the better half).

[Kat]

The Borden menus
From:
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... 9-1892.htm

July 31, 1892*
Sunday- Bridget serves mutton for first time
(*Some think Bridget would not cook on Sunday and therefore the mutton was first made on Saturday)

Aug. 2, 1892
Tuesday-fried swordfish served for dinner. Supper is warmed-over fish, toasted bakers bread, tea, cake, and cookies.

Aug. 2/ 3, 1892
Andrew and Abby are sick.

Aug. 3, 1892
Wednesday- breakfast is pork steak, johnny cakes and coffee.

9 a.m.
Abby visits Dr. Bowen across the street.

a.m.
Dr. Bowen tries to visit Andrew a.m.

a.m.
Lizzie tells Bridget she had been sick.

a.m.
Eli Bence claims Lizzie came to D. R. Smith's drug store to buy prussic acid.

noon
Boiled mutton and mutton soup for dinner. (supper is same soup warmed over, bread, cake, cookies and tea).

1:30 p.m. 
Morse arrives, has dinner.

--Just an aside: If that food was poison, I doubt Abby would have invited Morse to sit and partake even tho he said he wasn't hungry. She must have thought it was something else she ate- and Morse was not sick, after all.

[Smudgeman]

I wonder if food poisoning was common back then due to poor handling of meats or other factors, etc...? I have had food poisoning before, and it usually occurs 24 hours after consuming it. Was this the "first time ever" that Bridget had served mutton? Maybe she did not know how to cook it properly? Just a thought - cold mutton - YUK!

[Elisandra]

I've never had mutton, or even anything lamb for that matter. I have had the corned beef, I am part Irish, after all, but I don't eat it very often.
As for the food poisoning thing, I would think, since Andrew wouldn't spring for much in the way of high technology in the house that they'd have their food stored on large hunks of ice. I'm not sure if they even had refrigeration at that point. But if they did, I am pretty certain Andrew wouldn't have sprung for one. It's entirely possible they did have food poisoning, although it's odd only certain members of the family supposedly had it. It's entirely possible that parts of the story are something Lizzie made up. We do know she had an awful time keeping her story straight during the inquest testimony that she gave. Keep in mind there's still that possibility that someone was poisoning the food. Although there's no way to prove or disprove that one.

Julie

[Harry]

According to Bridget's Preliminary testimony they were to have cold mutton and warmed over soup for the dinner meal on the 4th. The soup contained potatoes. She doesn't say what else. Mutton broth?

"Q. Do you know what the dinner was that day?
A. Yes Sir, some soup to warm over, and some cold mutton.
Q. Potatoes?
A. No Sir; potatoes in the soup.
Q. Had you put the soup on when you went up stairs?
A. No Sir.
Q. You were coming down to do that about half past eleven?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Cold mutton, of course, did not require any cooking at all?
A. No Sir."

Maybe it was just the idea of having it for breakfast. I'd do a Lizzie and stay away from that meal.

Audrey, your avatar turned into Aunt Bee for a few posts?

[Audrey]

That was the divine Mrs Miller...

[stuartwsa]

Yes, Audrey, she WAS divine! Have you ever heard her country-western album??

[Susan]

That was the divine Mrs Miller...

My fiance loves Mrs. Miller, he thinks that she is a hoot! He says he remembers seeing her on the Late Night with Johnny Carson show. From what I've heard of her music, she just murders songs deliciously!

The soup contained potatoes. She doesn't say what else. Mutton broth?

I've looked high and low on the internet for recipes for Mutton broth, there are some simple ones that just have added barley or rice to the soup stock. Then there are more elaborate ones that have more items, such as this one:

2 pounds mutton neck
2 quarts cold water
1 tsp salt
1 small turnip, diced
1 carrot, diced
1 onion, diced
2 Tbsp barley
Salt and pepper to taste
1 tsp parsley

And the Irish version:

2 lb neck of mutton
6 cups water
2 tbsp pearl barley
1 large onion
1 medium turnip
2 large carrots
1/2 small white cabbage

No potatoes though, the general consensus seems to be that barley be added to Mutton broth. Maybe it was part of Andrew's thrift, use what you have in the kitchen to make dinner with. I suppose potatoes could be substituted for the turnips?

[Audrey]

Yes, Audrey, she WAS divine! Have you ever heard her country-western album??

I have most all of her albums....

[Kat]

There was a quantity of oil in Abby's stomach.

Alice Russell seemed to think it was the warmed -over swordfish which made the elder Bordens sick.
It is what they had that night- also Andrew had a sort of milque-toast, probably for "tea" on Tuesday. So the milk is still suspicious.

[Wordweaver]

I wonder how soon after the deaths Lizzie and/or Emma became a bit more generous with the grocery budget.

They did have Alice staying with them for a few days and of course Uncle John. Did they order in a lovely ham or a brisket of beef?

I wonder if Lizzie ever ate mutton again???

Whenever there's a death in the family, people always bring over casseroles and other food. The tradition may not be as strong these days, when you don't necessarily know your neighbors, but it would have been in full force when poor Lizzie was orphaned.

As for the mutton -- too nauseating to contemplate.

Lynn

[keim]

The idea of "warming up" something which was probably never chilled to begin with, is really a nauseating idea. Pizza?...maybe. But mutton, or fish? Gack!

But personally, I think the two stars of the Elizabeth Montomery version of the story, were Elizabeth...and of course, that toureen of mutton "broth"! Who could ever forget THAT?

And the fly had a great cameo appearance!

I wonder if it was common in those days, for most people to be suffering from some sort of food poisoning, but not thinking there was anything unusual about regularly feeling "under the weather".

[Pippi]

The idea of "warming up" something which was probably never chilled to begin with, is really a nauseating idea. Pizza?...maybe. But mutton, or fish? Gack!

But personally, I think the two stars of the Elizabeth Montomery version of the story, were Elizabeth...and of course, that toureen of mutton "broth"! Who could ever forget THAT?

And the fly had a great cameo appearance!

I wonder if it was common in those days, for most people to be suffering from some sort of food poisoning, but not thinking there was anything unusual about regularly feeling "under the weather".

hahaha I think you are right on about the movie and it's "stars" I will never forget the mutton or the fly! I would think, and from the research that I have done, that while food poisoning was a fairly common complaint their bodies also built up a bit of a tolerance for the germ/bacteria conditions.

[Harry]

In Victoria Lincoln's book (page 61, paperback edition) she has the following:

"Infectious gastrointestinal complaints were not recognized in Abby's lifetime; whether a family fell sick in unison or one after the other, it was always "something you ate." And in the days of the old wooden ice chest, few actually did get through the hot months without a mild case of food poisoning. It was called "summer complaint." The classic suspect was left-over fish, a suspicion, of course, well earned.
On the Tuesday after Andrew had blabbed downstreet about "a lot of trouble in the house," he came home to dine on yesterday's warmed-over fish. He and his wife retched all night; Bridget and Lizzie began to feel queasy the next day. "Wednesday, the day we was all sick," Bridget called it in court; she herself was still vomiting on Thursday morning. It sounds to our modem ears as if the family had just picked up a virus."

[Kat]

Can one build up tolerance to bacteria from food?

[Pippi]

Can one build up tolerance to bacteria from food?

Have I presumed too soon? I was basing off things like Mexico's water effects on Americans and it's lack of effect on those who had been exposed to it, as well as exposure to disease and other unsanitary conditions etc. in other countries and before better sanitation.

I believe it was on a recent PBS series about colonists many fell ill after eating the nasty food when they first settled however they all seemed to fair well later on.

[Kat]

I can't say you "presumed." I am just asking. It's not something I had thought about in that light, or anything I know about. Your foundation seems reasonable, thanks for the explanation.
Should we follow this line further?
I mean, any doctors in the house?

[donj]

Now I have a stomach ache :)

[Kat]

I just think there are probably more names of bacteria in food now than all of us could ever imagine.
So maybe in older days, these strains were more manageable- less of them, I mean. I may be thinking in modern terms.
We have a sister-in-law who is an Internist- should I ask her? I just don't know if she is old enough to compare trends today with those of the early 1900's.

It's a good question...

[Susan]

According to this site, in the late 1800s, Salmonella was discovered to be a seperate strain or genus of bacteria.

From this site:

http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/a2z-s.html

And I found this:

Milk has been pasteurized since the 1800s - when Louis Pasteur, a scientist, discovered that mild heating killed pathogenic bacteria.

From this site:

http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/fttmilk.html

Food-borne botulism was first identified in Europe during the 1800s as a problem in sausages. The sausages probably were slightly preserved with salt and smoke. Refrigeration was nonexistent or dependent on seasons of the year. Because of the great problem with sausages, the disease was named botulism after the Latin word for sausage, botulus.

From this site:

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/foodnut/09305.html

One of the problems with war is that soldiers insist on being fed regularly (remember, they hold the weapons). In the early 1800s, Napoleon found that the joy of his life, his large army, could no longer feed itself by stealing from the local peasants and thus his plans to conquer the world were stalled. His solution was to offer a reward for anyone who could figure out how to preserve food so he could take it along with his army, thus keeping them and him happy (the only unhappy ones being those he conquered). In 1810 a man by the name of APPERT found that if he put food in a bottle, jammed a cork tightly in it and placed it in boiling water for an hour or so the contents didn't spoil. BINGO!!, he won the prize, Napoleon got his war, and learned just how seriously cold a Russian winter could get. This procedure, known as STERILIZATION, eventually developed into the canning process. In the process of sterilization all living organisms are destroyed, including bacterial spores.

From this site:

http://www.slic2.wsu.edu:82/hurlbert/mi ... hap18.html

It sounds as though the Victorians had just as many bacteria in their food as we do today, though they were just learning how to get rid of them.

[Audrey]

I thought I was going to be really smart and did a google search for "food poisoning l890's" and came up with a lot of links to the archives of this very forum!

[Harry]

The Borden's milk came from their farm. It certainly wasn't pastuerized. It may have been heated before use but I would doubt it. Bridget makes no mention of that chore.

That and a few days old fish might turn a few stomachs.

[Tracie]

Hi folks,

Has anyone ever heard of leftovers? Waste not want not. I asked my Mom if she shopped at the leftover store when I was a kid. We had leftovers alot, a way of stretching the household budget.

If the mutton broth was brought to a full boil for a long enough time, it would more than likely kill any bacteria present, but the cold mutton meat would be in question.

I love lamb. you either love it or hate it. It is strong tasting. I also like corned beef and will cook a boiled dinner when it is on sale.

Tracie

[donj]

Boiling the milk was probably so standard that Bridget wouldn't have mentioned it.

[Kat]

Q:
"We were discussing on our Forum the topic of food poisoning, and that it was prevalent in the late 1890’s, before real refrigerators. They had ice boxes, for instance, but many got what they called the “summer complaint”
due to the food going bad.

A member opined that the populace got used to this back then and essentially built up an “immunity.” They used an example of people in 3rd world countries who get used to the water, whereas if we went there and drank it, we’d get sick.

I was skeptical, but that last part sounded reasonable. Is there something you can tell me that I could post on the Forum, without your going to any trouble?

Thanks! -Kat"

Answer:
"I'm not sure of the exact question, but it is true that people indigenous to areas with impure water/food can indeed build up immunity to parasites/bacteria that would make non-indigenous people sick. Hope this helps!" --Doctor

[Susan]

I thought this might be a good place to post this what with all the talk of bacteria and such. I was reading through Bridget's Preliminary testimony and found this. page 73:

Q. You made a coal fire that morning, did not you?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you have any boiler there, or have to heat the water with a tea kettle?
A. Heat the water with a tea kettle.
Q. You did not finish washing the dishes until after nine o’clock?
A. Not right finished up.
Q. Then you had to go in there and work around, after Mrs. Borden gave you this direction you testified to, cleaning up in the kitchen? You had a coal fire?
A. Yes Sir.


It sounds as if they are alluding to Bridget heating up the water to do her dishes with a tea kettle. What do you think?

[doug65oh]

It does sound as though that's what she was alluding to. My paternal grandmother actually did her dishes like that for many years. She'd boil the water in a tea kettle (on the coal stove in the front room, oddly enough) then mix that with cold well water and dish detergent at the kitchen sink - enough cold water to prevent scalding, that is, and have at it. The water tested out as drinkable, but had as I remember quite a metallic taste - like sucking on a penny for ten seconds or so then spitting the penny out.

[Kat]

Yes, it does sound like that, Susan. So the fire was going to heat the water at least as long as she was doing dishes?
She took quite some time to finish up the dish work, didn't she?
Doesn't she later say (or earlier) that after breakfast she didn't have anymore to do with the fire in the stove?
Yet it seems like she is saying she was heating dish water?
Maybe there are more answers around this clip which explains more?

[Nona]

So one thing I think we should question is where did this MUTTOn come from to begin with? Where was it bought? Off a wagon the store a farmer? who brought it and in what manner? was it stored riight away? Same for the swardfish.....

As for the milk we know how that got there.I think it was discussed earlier in some thread about the milk man milk can, yada yada but what I wanted to say about milk being warm is it actually is suppose to bring some sort of sleepy time effect-like turkey does from triptifan. My mom used to warm me up milk when I couldnt sleep always worked like a charm. Although, I will say that I don't really know the scientific reason that happens but it does.

[Kat]

Morse ate food which the Bordens had been eating and didn't get sick. He didn't have the fish tho. I don't know if he had any milk.

[Susan]

Yes, it does sound like that, Susan. So the fire was going to heat the water at least as long as she was doing dishes?
She took quite some time to finish up the dish work, didn't she?
Doesn't she later say (or earlier) that after breakfast she didn't have anymore to do with the fire in the stove?
Yet it seems like she is saying she was heating dish water?
Maybe there are more answers around this clip which explains more?

From page 26, Bridget's Preliminary testimony:

Q. How did you leave the fire when you went up stairs?
A. I did not see the fire at all.
Q. When was the last time you had anything to do with the fire?
A. After getting breakfast, and washing my dishes, I did not see the fire again. I had no business with it.

So, it sounds like the fire was used for heating water to wash the dishes too. The reason I brought this up when I found it was that there was a question in the past about whether Bridget washed the dishes in cold water or not. Unfortunately the thread is buried in the archives and can't be posted on anymore.