What do you think about John Morse?

[annmarz]

Lately I have been giving extra thought to good old Uncle John. I always tended to think that Lizzie and Lizzie alone committed the murders but John Morse is such an enigma. First there is the fact that he was in town visiting when the murders occurred. Yes it could be a coincidence. His alibi, though, takes it to a new level. It is just WAY too precise and detailed. He HAD to be involved in some way.

What is your opinion?

[stargazer]

I believe that Uncle John's appearance at the house triggered something in Lizzies behavior. The fact that she seemed to avoid him the night before, and in the morning tells me that she was "in a mood." Of course, Uncle John could have hidden in the barn, or something, but since he had to have a "cover" he had to be seen away from the residence.

As for recalling the number on a conductor's badge, I am famous for reading any and all name tags on people I see. I don't suspect him because of his "high visibility factor" coming, and going, and I can't imagine why he would kill Andrew. I think Lizzie Killed Andrew partly because of what he did to her pigeons. He may have become a person she just "didn't know" any more.

[Angel]

I think Morse heard what happened from a phone call at his relatives before he left, so he made sure to remember the badge numbers and the priest on the street car to make sure he would not be implicated. I think when he got to the house he went to the back yard first to get a handle on what was happening before he entered the house.

[SteveS.]

I tend to agree with Angel on this. Uncle John's behaviour upon return to the Borden house seems to indicate he had prier knowledge of what had happened. It probably just didn't go quite to plan though because of his comment to Lizzie "my God Lizzie, how could this happen?".

[kssunflower]

I think he had a hand in it somehow. Why would Lizzie commit murder if there was a chance Morse could have returned suddenly and wanted to use the guest room again for a nap. Unless he was part of the collaboration? I guess a phone call to the niece's house before he left could explain his behavior upon returning, not seeming that surprised, and going to the back of the house to eat pears. I go back and forth on this.

[Yooper]

Involvement by Morse tends to over-complicate the murders. When would the murders have been planned? How could the particulars be foreseen? What was his motive?

[Angel]

I don't think he had anything to do with it.

[snokkums]

Here's an over active imagination for you. Wasn't Uncle John Lizzie's mothers brother. What if he didn't "put the idea" into Lizzie's head? Maybe he was alittle like Emma and wasn't to keen on Abby and the fact that Andrew getting remarried. He just happened to be gone like Emma so not to be suspected of anything. Oh boy, I letting the imagination run wild.

[SallyG]

Here's an over active imagination for you. Wasn't Uncle John Lizzie's mothers brother. What if he didn't "put the idea" into Lizzie's head? Maybe he was alittle like Emma and wasn't to keen on Abby and the fact that Andrew getting remarried. He just happened to be gone like Emma so not to be suspected of anything. Oh boy, I letting the imagination run wild.

Remarriage was a very common thing back then....as was death. I have ancestors from the 1800's that married three and four times due to the deaths of their spouses. Andrew and Abby had been married for a long time...longer than Andrew and his first wife were married. I doubt John Morse cared one way or the other if Andrew remarried or not.

I don't think John Morse had anything to do with the murders...other than being at the wrong place at the wrong time. He had no motive for murder, he did not gain by the murders, and he and Andrew were friends.

Nope, I put the blame right square on Lizzie! She had the motive, and she darned sure had the opportunity!

[robbchadwick]

Regarding Uncle John having heard about what happened in an innocent sort of way BEFORE he began his journey back to the Borden house that noon, it wasn't like it is today in 1892. News didn't travel as fast as it does now. The telephone was still a very new thing. Most residences did not have telephone service until well up into the 20th century. I'm pretty certain there was no telephone in the Borden house.

The main means of sending news was by telegraph; and that required delivery of a telegram by a messenger. News began to spread by word of mouth near the Borden home; but I don't think Uncle John would have had time to hear about it before he started his trip back. He may have heard about it as he neared the house; but in my opinion, his behavior when he did arrive for the noon meal was very strange. Even if he was starving, I would think he would have investigated what was going on before he began gathering up his lunch of pears.

Also, if he did know about the murders before he began his trip back, even the most level-headed person out there with a penchant for memorizing names and numbers should have been thrown off balance a bit with news like that.

I do believe there was something strange about Uncle John.

[nbcatlover]

There have been theories proposed which have Lizzie being molested by Andrew. Uncle John stayed with them before for an extended period with his room supposedly being in the attic. If he were the molester and not Andrew, one could speculate that something happened during the night prior to the murders or just having him so close (with no Emma around) could cause a mental snap...some post-traumatic flashback...

Personally, I think Uncle John was just a fairly crude, eccentric man who was pretty harmless. After the murders, he spent time in New Bedford. He seemed to stay with old relatives who were in failing health as a boarder (paying for his keep to help out the relatives was what was implied). His former trades as a butcher and a horse trader were rough jobs.

[Bob Gutowski]

As a young man I think he was wild-eyed, but kinda hot.

[Angel]

Speaking of wild eyed- he sorta had that same look as his sister in his eyes. Maybe they were both a bit off.

[Angel]

Regarding Uncle John having heard about what happened in an innocent sort of way BEFORE he began his journey back to the Borden house that noon, it wasn't like it is today in 1892. News didn't travel as fast as it does now. The telephone was still a very new thing. Most residences did not have telephone service until well up into the 20th century. I'm pretty certain there was no telephone in the Borden house..

There was no phone in the Borden house, but I do believe there was one in the house he was visiting. Someone near the Borden house could have called.

[Allen]

I've never believed Uncle John was involved for many of the reasons already stated. He didn't gain anything by the Bordens' death. He had his own money and by all accounts was a rich man of his own making. He spent too much time visiting Abby and Andrew for me to think he disliked his brother in-law and his new wife. After all, Andrew was not blood kin to him, merely a brother in- law. His sister was long dead. If he disliked Andrew or Abby it wasn't exactly mandatory for him to spend as much time in their home as he did. For this reason I believe he and Andrew were truly friends. Andrew actually seemed to trust John's advice in at least business matters, and I will guess some personal matters as well.I get his feeling from him having discussed his wishes for his will with John.

John Morse may have been eccentric or crude, but he seemed to have a lot of people who genuinely enjoyed his company. He never lived on his own, he always boarded with different people, or had people living with him in his own home. When he was at the Bordens' home he visited friends and relatives quite frequenly. I can't see that a rude, miserly, oddball would've had that much luck finding people to willingly share a roof with him. Or want him to come calling for any extended period of time. He had at least one niece who was very fond of him. Emma professed her own fondness and stated they exchanged letters. The newspaper accounts listed in Rebello show he was a person of interest in his home town, and appeared to be respected and thought well of. He had to have his good points.

When it comes to the question of why Morse didn't think anything was odd when he arrived at the Borden house I have thought about that a lot. Second Street by many accounts was a busy thoroughfare with lots of foot traffic, wagons, and such. Just reading the witness statements to see how many people were out walking past the house, or rode past, or were just standing in front of their places of business that day attests to that fact without having read any testimony. There were many businesses along that street. There were also men working around the Borden home on an adjacent property.

Plus, Andrew was known to have done business out of his home. It might not have been strange to walk up to the house and see men standing near the door, or even find potential tenants inside talking to Andrew. Just as it would not be odd to see this in any other place were business was conducted. I agree that news did not travel like it does today. It was still passed on by word of mouth for the most part. I don't think John had any chances to be alerted to what was going on. Unless he passed someone who had already heard the news. Even if the home he was visiting had a phone, someone who had already heard the news and knew where to find him, and that he was even visiting and needed to be found, would have to call to convey the news from another telephone somewhere.

[mbhenty]

Yes Allen, good observation. Always nice to see you post.

But, I have my own thoughts about JM and his approach to the murder house on that August 4th.

I believe he had an idea that something terrible had happened and that the evil probably lived in that house, thus his hesitation to enter the house.

On a personal observation.........

I remember working in someone's home for a day or two, while the business of the day continued for its occupants.......working in the background, traveling up and down stairs, carrying tools in and out the house. I remember becoming very familiar with the way its inhabitants treated each other, family problems, fights, etc. At times, I felt like a had a good rendering of inner feelings these strangers had for each other. This in 2 short days.

I can only imagine what Morse heard and witnessed considering all the time he spent there.

I don't think he had anything to do with the murders, but I believe he had his convictions and conclusions, and I believe they were formed real early, and if not....... as late as that day, as he lingered around the yard.

[Yooper]

If we take Morse's reluctance to enter the house when he returned for lunch as apprehension, he may have had reason for it. He was aware that Emma was away, she was the one who corresponded with him while his other niece, who seemed to avoid him, was present in the house. It is hard to imagine Morse being unaware of a difference in behavior between the two, so he may have found Lizzie a bit odd. If he found a crowd gathering at the front of the house and Charles Sawyer guarding the back door when he returned, he may have suspected the worst. If Andrew or Abby had expressed some fear of any kind, he certainly would have suspected it. Morse may have needed a few minutes to gather his thoughts, consider the possibilities, and muster the gumption to face whatever had occurred. For all he knew at the moment, Lizzie might have also been affected by whatever had happened.

His testimony about being unaware of a gathering crowd may have been an attempt to protect Lizzie as well as himself. If he had admitted to being aware of a crowd, his hesitance at entering the house would then have to be explained. He would have to state a reason for it, which might imply that he thought Lizzie capable of murdering her parents.

[mbhenty]

Yes Yooper, my sentiments exactly.........

.............................................................................................................

And Bob, I thought Melvin Adams was a lot hotter than Morse......and his intellect and wit just enhances his good looks.

[Kat]

Recently I had gotten out my Morse file- actually loose papers coming to hand for me to file and here is The(New Bedford) Evening Standard's article on Uncle John Morse. I've just now made it a PDF for download.
If there are those who cannot download, plz speak up and I will attach as 3 individual JPEGs.

[Kat]

A collection of some of my posts on Morse info from this Forum:

Fall River Weekly News, June 28, 1893

Mr. Morse and His Joke on the County Treasurer

County Treasurer Pratt laughingly related the following incident. Among the Borden trial witnesses who approached him to get their fee was John V. Morse. Mr. Morse approached the desk of the county treasurer and asked:

"I suppose I get mileage, same as the rest?"
"Certainly. Where did you come from?"
"From Iowa."
"Ah, and how far is that?" asked the treasurer, looking up in some trepidation as to the funds holding out.
"About 1600 miles."
"Where were you summoned from?"
"From Fall River."
"Where do you live?"
"Don't live anywhere about here; just knocking about now."
"Where do you have your washing done?"
"Don't have any done: when one shirt is soiled I throw it away and buy another," and there was not a sign of a glint in the joker's eyes.
"Where have you been stopping recently? Where do you call your home for the present about here?"
"Oh, well, I s'pose South Dartmouth is as near to it as any place."
"And how far is that?"
"About two and one-half miles."
"Well," said Mr. Pratt, with a big sigh of relief. "I'll allow you three miles," and the joker took his cash with never a movement of his muscles, while Mr. Pratt mopped his brow and greeted the next comer.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Also, Morse in his gray suit:

Rebello page122-3

I have never borrowed a dollar of Andrew Borden in my life.' ... A letter from a cashier in an Iowa bank of recent date, shows a handsome balance of Mr. Morse's credit. Mr. Morse wears a suit of light gray clothes, all he has with him since he has been in the city. There is not a spot apparent on the suit. 'Look at me,' he said, 'as a man of common sense, and say if I could have committed such a horrible butchery and present the appearance I do.' This last remark shows how keenly the unhappy man feels the injustice that hasty suspicion has done him." Fall River Evening News, Friday, August 5, 1892.

---It's implied by Morse that he could have returned to the Davis place the same day he came to Fall River (Wednesday). That may be why he seems to not have brought any change of clothing or toiletries.

Morse
Inquest
102
Q. When you came from New Bedford to Fall River did you have any set time to go back?
A. Not particular, no. I told Mr. Davis I would try to get back the next day. He says you will be gone two days, I guess, I will give you that. I could have gone back the night before at six o’clock or half past.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


This is a post of mine from the Privy. It includes reference to "Jeffery" a past member who had researched intensively the *Davis connection* to the Borden case:

Jeffery referred to the January, 1998 LBQ, as providing info in there on Mrs. Doris Reed Grimwade, who, he claims, by their own family tree, are related to Wm. Davis.

She is apparently the great niece of Wm. A. Davis. They are the direct line of Emma W. Davis, the older sister of William.

The article in the LBq is entitled "John Vinnicum Morse"- 'I Sat On His Lap', by Mr. Bertolet.
The Bertolets went to interview this Mrs. Grimwade, who was 98 in 1998.

She recalled Alice Russell teaching sewing in the schools and she says about Lizzie that her own mother thought her innocent but "mother came around. No one in Fall River ever believed Lizzie was innocent after the trial. They protected her throughout but there never was any chance of her being convicted. After all, she was a woman and a Sunday School teacher."

As for Morse: This Mrs. Grimwade sat on his lap!
She recalls:
"John Vinnicum Morse was a friend of the family. I was only about three years old when all this was happening with John Morse and what I remember is mother taking me to New Bedford because John Morse was visiting and she wanted to see him. He was an old family friend. And what I remember about it was sitting on his lap, and his white beard. What interested me most was a gold watch with a heavy gold chain with sort of an ornament. You put the watch in one vest pocket and then the chain and the thing to hold it down in another. The fob, I guess you call it, yes. When he was visiting they were very glad to see him. Mother made a special trip. She was the one who was most interested in the Lizzie Borden business.

...Aunt and Uncle...Mr. Morse was visiting there. I don't know if he was staying with them or not. He was there. John Morse was a friend, a very well-respected, well-liked friend of the family. Sometimes he stayed out in Pettinara with...the Davis', Charles and Isaac, had a farm out there and I don't know if he was staying with my aunt and uncle or just visiting them the way we were. They lived in an apartment on the second floor but I couldn't tell you what street.

What can I tell you about him? Everybody liked John Morse. I mean he was a welcome guest where ever he went. Another thing I can tell you about him that my mother told me, he never allowed you to talk about Lizzie Borden in his presence. He didn't want to discuss her at all. The whole thing was distasteful. Why should he get mixed up in it? And why should he have to talk about it afterwards? I don't know. You don't talk about things like that. He just got mixed up in it and didn't want to talk about it. He never discussed her afterwards. Nobody ever spoke of it to him."...

---Jeffery contacted the son of Mrs. Grimwade, and met the grandson of Wm. Davis, but felt they were not being candid with him which made him suspicious. Even after reading this article on Mrs. Grimwade, Jeffery still believed in Morse's complicity in a conspiracy to murder Andrew Borden.

[Allen]

Well depending on how much the family talked about it down through the years, the family might know next to nothing. It might not be that they were not being candid, just that they really didn't know much to tell in the first place. Events like this might make people tend to want to bury it and move on. They may have taken the stance that Morse took and not want to discuss it. I remember reading a book by Gail Bell called Poison. Her grandfather was accused of poisoning his two young sons with strychnine. He was a self proclaimed doctor who concocted his own elixirs and medicines. Her father and many people associated with the case refused to talk about it. Her grandfather's medical bag was ultimately destroyed because her father didn't want to keep it around as a reminder. She had to research the case just as any other person would and start from scratch. She started out knowing next to nothing other than what the man was accused of doing. He was never convicted of the crime. The deaths were ruled as accidental. During her research she uncovered the fact that one of these sons did not even die as his parents had reported. He had been admitted to a hospital because he was very ill and unable to do even the simplest tasks for himself. He was kept in their care until his death a few years later. It seems his parents would rather have lived with the suspicion of poisoning him, than with the "shame" of admitting him to a hospital.

[Yooper]

John Morse was in a unique position immediately after the murders, he was likely the first person suspected of the crimes. When his alibi checked out, Lizzie became the primary suspect. If Morse was inclined to protect his niece, he had to be careful of the way in which he allayed suspicion of himself by the authorities. Morse may have been aware that Lizzie could be suspected of the crimes, so he had to take care that any of the reasons stated for his innocence did not incriminate Lizzie.

As eccentric as Morse's behavior may seem to us, it didn't seem to put people off at the time. He apparently was a welcome guest in many places, before and after the murders. Hard to imagine that if he was seriously suspected as the murderer, given Fall River's treatment of Lizzie after the trial.

[Franz]

His testimony about being unaware of a gathering crowd may have been an attempt to protect Lizzie as well as himself. If he had admitted to being aware of a crowd, his hesitance at entering the house would then have to be explained. He would have to state a reason for it, which might imply that he thought Lizzie capable of murdering her parents.

In the Witness statements registered by John Fleet (p. 3) on August 4th, Morse said that “… and got to Mr. Borden’s house about or near twelve o’clock. Saw a number of persons around the house, and was told that Mr. and Mrs, Borden was killed.”

Yes, Morse didn't use the word "crowd", but his testimony implied clearly that he saw "a number of persons around of house" before he was told the deaths news. And that "a number of persons around the house" should be an unusual thing to Morse, so drew his attention, because we wouldn't say: "I saw that tree (that was always there)".

[Allen]

The witness statements are a summary of information received by the police and they often didn't go into more detail than they had to. Because they were notes taken to refresh the memory of the officer when giving reports and to give him an outline of the case to refer back to while conducting further investigation. That's why some of the information seems rather choppy in places. And I doubt that any of the officers were taking these notes with the intent of making a profit by using them as a novel later on. That information doesn't state when Morse saw a number of people around the house, or even where. He could have been referring to after he got inside and saw Mrs. Churchill, Dr. Bowen, Lizzie, Alice Russell, Bridget, Mr. Sawyer...etc etc. There were a number of people around the house.

[Franz]

Yes, Allen, in that statement it was not mentioned when Morse saw a number of persons, but let's reread those phrases: "... Saw a number of persons around the house, and was told that Mr. and Mrs, Borden was killed.”

The phrase "saw a numeber of persons" precede "was told...", and between them it is used "and", so the most probable exegesis, in my opinion, should be: Morse saw a number of person first; he was told the terrible news afterwards. Please notice that before these two phrases, Morse made his statement always in chronological order. So it's difficult for me to speculate here that he was told the news first, and saw a number of persons later.

[Allen]

Inquest testimony of John Morse page 104:

Q. When was the first you heard Mr. Borden was killed?
A. When I went into the door. I went around, before I went into the house, to a pear tree to get a couple of pears. When I came back, the servant girl met me at the door, and asked me if I heard the news. I said no. She said Mr. And Mrs. Borden were both murdered. A man named Sawyer stood there at the time.

Q. Was anybody else in the house then?
A. A man named Bowen, I think several policemen, I don't know. There was so much excitement, I know there was several women there.

Q. Had Dr. Dolan, this man here, come, the Medical Examiner?
A. I could not tell you.

Q. They had found Mrs. Borden at that time?
A. Yes, or she could not have told me.

Q. Where did you see Lizzie when you got in there?
A. I think in the dining room.

Q. Who was she with?
A. That I could not tell.

Q. How many people were in the house do you think, when you got there?
A. I don't know. I think six or seven or eight. There was quite a number there.

Q. Were there any people out on the street?
A. I did not see them when I went in.

Q. You did not see any excitement in the yard or on the street?
A. Nothing to attract my attention at all.

----------

page 105:

Q. Was there not a good many people in the street about that time, when you came down?
A. I did not see anything to attract my attention at all.

Q. Did you see anything to attract your attention to the house when you went by?
A. No sir, saw nothing to attract my attention at all.

[Yooper]

Apparently, Fleet's notes don't specify whether Morse saw a number of people inside or outside the house.

[Franz]

Apparently, Fleet's notes don't specify whether Morse saw a number of people inside or outside the house.

Use your common sens, then.

[Franz]

Apparently, Fleet's notes don't specify whether Morse saw a number of people inside or outside the house.

Morse said "saw a number of persons around the house." Yooper, in your dictionary of English what does the word "around" mean?

[Franz]

Inquest testimony of John Morse page 104:

Q. When was the first you heard Mr. Borden was killed?
A. When I went into the door. I went around, before I went into the house, to a pear tree to get a couple of pears. When I came back, the servant girl met me at the door, and asked me if I heard the news. I said no. She said Mr. And Mrs. Borden were both murdered. A man named Sawyer stood there at the time.

Q. Was anybody else in the house then?
A. A man named Bowen, I think several policemen, I don't know. There was so much excitement, I know there was several women there.

Q. Had Dr. Dolan, this man here, come, the Medical Examiner?
A. I could not tell you.

Q. They had found Mrs. Borden at that time?
A. Yes, or she could not have told me.

Q. Where did you see Lizzie when you got in there?
A. I think in the dining room.

Q. Who was she with?
A. That I could not tell.

Q. How many people were in the house do you think, when you got there?
A. I don't know. I think six or seven or eight. There was quite a number there.

Q. Were there any people out on the street?
A. I did not see them when I went in.

Q. You did not see any excitement in the yard or on the street?
A. Nothing to attract my attention at all.

----------

page 105:

Q. Was there not a good many people in the street about that time, when you came down?
A. I did not see anything to attract my attention at all.

Q. Did you see anything to attract your attention to the house when you went by?
A. No sir, saw nothing to attract my attention at all.

The witness statement was made in August 4th, it should have been more fresh, more spontaneous. And in that statement he said explicitly "a number of persons around the house". In the inquest testimony why Morse denied what he said in the witness statement?

[Allen]

When I tell someone I am sitting around the house I don't usually mean I am sitting outside on all sides of my house. Or that I am even sitting outside at all. The word 'around' was also used in this way in Victorian times just as it is now. "I was doing my chores around the house." "I tried to help out around the house." 'I was just sitting around the house that day." "There were many people around the house that day." "I searched all around the house for my slippers." Do you see anywhere in any of those sentences that shows that the word 'around' definitively means outside?

[Yooper]

Apparently, Fleet's notes don't specify whether Morse saw a number of people inside or outside the house.

Use your common sens, then.

I'm not surprised you would have to ask for that.

[Yooper]

Apparently, Fleet's notes don't specify whether Morse saw a number of people inside or outside the house.

Morse said "saw a number of persons around the house." Yooper, in your dictionary of English what does the word "around" mean?

I don't need an English dictionary.

[Franz]

Allen, in the Inquest testimony Morse was asked:

Q. How many people were in the house do you think, when you got there?
A. I don't know. I think six or seven or eight. There was quite a number there.

If in the witness statement Morse wanted to say all that number of persons that he saw were in the house, why didn't he say "I saw a number of persons in the house", insted of "around the house"?

In your tread you gave me an exemple: "There were many people around the house that day". If these "many people" were all at the inside of the house, would you say :""There were many people in the house that day", or ""There were many people around the house that day"?

And other members, what do you think?

[Aamartin]

Franz... In America we say things like 'I stayed around the house all day waiting for a delivery' or something like that--- it can be inside.

If I spent the day at Allen's, we would say 'we hung out around the house' which could mean a number of things-- like sitting inside watching movies, gardening, drinking coffee in her kitchen-- 'around the house' could mean in or outside.

[Franz]

Franz... In America we say things like 'I stayed around the house all day waiting for a delivery' or something like that--- it can be inside.

If I spent the day at Allen's, we would say 'we hung out around the house' which could mean a number of things-- like sitting inside watching movies, gardening, drinking coffee in her kitchen-- 'around the house' could mean in or outside.

Allen, Yooper, Aamartin, Morse said that “… and got to Mr. Borden’s house about or near twelve o’clock. Saw a number of persons around the house, and was told that Mr. and Mrs, Borden was killed.”

In your opinion, it means more probable "inside" or "outside"?

[Yooper]

John Morse testified as to what he saw at the inquest, John Fleet's notes to himself seem to be the point of all this.

[Yooper]

Franz... In America we say things like 'I stayed around the house all day waiting for a delivery' or something like that--- it can be inside.

If I spent the day at Allen's, we would say 'we hung out around the house' which could mean a number of things-- like sitting inside watching movies, gardening, drinking coffee in her kitchen-- 'around the house' could mean in or outside.

Allen, Yooper, Aamartin, Morse said that “… and got to Mr. Borden’s house about or near twelve o’clock. Saw a number of persons around the house, and was told that Mr. and Mrs, Borden was killed.”

In your opinion, it means more probable "inside" or "outside"?

It could mean either. John Fleet took the statement in note form, and he knew what it meant. Morse clarified that at the inquest.

[Aamartin]

Also-- around the house could mean not in one room. Scattered about-- inside or outside.

"Officer, I had people over. There must of been 20 people around here!"

"Doing what?"

"Some were cooking on the grill, others were drinking beer on the patio and some were in the living room watching a movie"

[Yooper]

Maybe this will be clearer, we don't know what Morse said to Fleet, all we know is what Fleet wrote as a notation to himself. Morse made a clear statement at the inquest.

[Franz]

Allen, Yooper, Aamartin, Morse said that “… and got to Mr. Borden’s house about or near twelve o’clock. Saw a number of persons around the house, and was told that Mr. and Mrs, Borden was killed.”

In your opinion, it means more probable "inside" or "outside"?

It could mean either. John Fleet took the statement in note form, and he knew what it meant. Morse clarified that at the inquest.

In the witeness statement Fleet registeredd what Morse told using the direct discourse (I), in the quotation marks. In my opinion, the note form doesn't damage the credibility of the document. On the contrary, it should be more reliable in the case of divergences with other documents made afterwards.

Since "around the house" can mean either "in the house" or "outside the house", we can interpret the passage differently:

1. Morse meant "in the house", therefore, his statement and his inquest testimony were coherent;

2. Morse meant "outside the house", therefore, his statement was in contradiction with his inquest testimony (after reflections, Morse could have changed his version so that his behaviour in arriving at house could seem less suspicious.)

Since there are two interpretative possibilities, we should consider them equally, we are not forced to accept only one of them, right?

[Yooper]

Morse is not the author of both statements. Fleet is the author of the first and Morse the second. The inquest testimony is directly from Morse, first hand. The first statement is second hand information.

[PossumPie]

I think Morse heard what happened from a phone call at his relatives before he left, so he made sure to remember the badge numbers and the priest on the street car to make sure he would not be implicated. I think when he got to the house he went to the back yard first to get a handle on what was happening before he entered the house.

Although Telephones were invented in 1876 Most people did not have them until well into the 1900's.....Are you sure about a phone???

[Franz]

Morse is not the author of both statements. Fleet is the author of the first and Morse the second. The inquest testimony is directly from Morse, first hand. The first statement is second hand information.

Do you think so? I would like to know how other members think about what you said here.

[Allen]

While I do give weight to the witness statements, and think they hold some valuable information, I still think the notes are not as detailed as we would like. They are, as Yooper said, secondhand information. They did not directly come from Morse. They were written down by another individual who was there to collect the facts, but may not have reflected all of them in his notes. Because that's just what they were. His notes. Like writing a summary of something you have read.

When I was taking my Criminal Justice courses one of my instructors was a former Police Chief from Pittsburgh. On the subject of taking notes by police officers he emphasized the importance of taking down everything you saw and heard that you thought was relevant. No matter how insignificant it seemed at the time. Because you never know what is important until you investigate further. And you cannot go back and have a second chance to gather that evidence in most cases. But he also said that most officers jot down quick notes to refresh their memories of those important facts. They might not go into explicit details, but generalize as reminders to themselves. I'm well aware of police procedures past and present. Because I studied it in college in depth it was part of my major as a Criminal Justice student. I learned how to interview witnesses, investigate a scene, collect evidence, and use deductive reasoning. We were taught every aspect of what goes into investigating and successfully prosecuting a crime. And how to support everything with just the facts. Because without facts you have no case. That is the golden rule of law enforcement. So maybe that is why I consistently check and recheck facts and require proof. And maybe that is why I do not believe that all police officers are behind some thin blue curtain. I absolutely loved this instructor and his Pittsburgh accent. He was a lovely man with so much knowledge he enjoyed sharing with all of us about his job and his own personal experiences.

One of our projects was dividing into groups and recreating an actual crime scene. (As close as you possibly can without access to the actual crime scene of course.) We had to replicate the crime scene and then investigate it as if we were the officers called to the scene. My group chose the Brown/Simpson murders. We had to take notes on what we saw (even though we had set it up we were to look at it like we had just come upon it), draw out the crime scene sketches, take photographs, collect the evidence, etc. The only thing we could not do is question witnesses. We read their statements instead. We had to explain our reasoning for what we were doing to the instructor every step of the way. We then presented our findings to the class afterwards. In taking notes and drawing sketches I found most of us generalized information just as I said. This was an observation of mine.

[Yooper]

I would not say so if I didn't think so, why would you need to ask?

Let's hear from everybody! The witness statement is what Fleet said that Morse said. The inquest testimony is what Morse said. Anybody?

[Smudgeman]

Since Franz has yet to disclose his age or shoe size, I have chosen to stay out of his ridiculous arguments that have no merit. It seems he is here to satisfy a personal need of his. What that is I do not know? Please enlighten us all, and don't say you are here to find the truth, because you are only here for arguments sake.

[Yooper]

I agree, Scott, I'm far more baffled than dazzled, if you know what I mean. I think he just wanted to make sure I wasn't misleading him again.

[Aamartin]

Franz, in your opinion-- why would it make a difference as to how many people were in or outside of the house once the crimes were discovered? Apart from the obvious-- that the murderer could have been lurking about?

[Yooper]

Morse is not the author of both statements. Fleet is the author of the first and Morse the second. The inquest testimony is directly from Morse, first hand. The first statement is second hand information.

Do you think so? I would like to know how other members think about what you said here.

You're concerned with the accuracy of statements made on this forum? That's a laugh! Maybe you don't like the manner in which you're being spoon-fed?