Bridget's inquest testimony~old newspapers

irina · Post by **irina** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:09 am

Bridget's inquest testimony is said to have been "lost" under somewhat suspicious circumstances. Knowing how detailed a lot of newspaper coverage was in the 1800s I decided to go through these old papers at Chronicling America, to see if I could reconstruct Bridget's early testimony. The best over all article I have found so far is in the NY 'Sun', Sunday August 28, 1892. Hopefully the following link will work for everyone's enjoyment:

chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn830302721/1892-08-28/ed-1/seq-3pdf

Be sure to read about the "green pears". In Bridget's estimate the pears were too green to eat. There was an attempt at this hearing to blame the stomach upsets on green pears. Piecing together also from other articles, Andrew brought pears into the house so they wouldn't go to waste. Sometimes he "threw them under the barn". In the article at this link Bridget says Lizzie never went into the barn to her knowledge, after the horse was sold. Bridget also points out the mysterious key on the sitting room mantle is the key to the SAFE in Mr. and Mrs. Borden's bedroom. It is not the key to the bedroom door as we have all believed. Andrew presumably put the white package into the SAFE and returned the key. I am finding a lot of little tid bits that have not generally been in anything I have read before.

At the end of the article are also some legal points where the state messed up. In a number of other articles it is quite well documented that there was very little blood spatter and the whole discussion is very similar to what has been said on this forum. The murderer probably wouldn't have had much if an blood on him/her due to the victims dying rapidly among other things.

Somewhere I read that much newspaper coverage of the case was favourable to Lizzie all through. I am using "Bridget Sullivan" for a search term and so far every article I have read has been extremely negative toward Lizzie. Possibly this is because I am searching actual proceedings and not opinion or local color pieces?

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:33 am

Oh, wow, Irina; this sounds so intriguing!!! However, the link you provided did not work for me!!!

Would you mind re-posting the link? You've really got my curiosity up.

irina · Post by **irina** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:55 pm

I'll work on it till I get it done. A certain percentage of the links I provide don't work and I don't know why. I'm not as proficient with a computer as many others. This article is SO FANTASTIC that I bookmarked it. Hang on...I'll be right back.

irina · Post by **irina** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:03 pm

Don't know if I made a mistake or if the URL changed when it went to bookmarks. Try this:

chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83030271/1892-08-10/ed-1/seq-2.pdf

Good luck. I want to share this with everyone. I have never read some of these things. Prior to hitting the old papers I spent all day yesterday just doing google searches and not getting the information I wanted. I wasn't feeling well and was just blowing time. Finally got frustrated and decided to see if I could find Bridget's missing testimony, and was so enthralled with the old papers I read till quite late in the night.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:07 pm

I'm guessing on this from looking at the url that doesn't work...link below is to Chronicling America at the Library of Congress

http://www.loc.gov/rr/news/topics/borden.html

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:10 pm

for newspapers only click http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/

irina · Post by **irina** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:33 pm

You are right, Debbie. I have been going to pdf to be able to read the pages. Let's try this non-pdf link:

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/ ... earchType=...

irina · Post by **irina** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:38 pm

Have no idea what I'm doing wrong. Downloaded it into my files but half the Borden article was cut off & my files never work too good anyway~or I don't know how to use them. Think the article is in a file of photographs now. Gosh, what a mess. Hope everyone finds the article on their own. The "Sun" on August 10, 1892 details Bridget's stay with Mr. & Mrs. Patrick Harrington. Mrs. Harrignton said she was Bridget's cousin. "Mrs. Harrington's reply was evasive. She and her husband came from County Cork, Ireland and have been in Fall River over eleven years, Bridget Sullivan is a cousin of Mrs. Harrington."

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:58 pm

Is this the correct page, Irina? In the upper right corner:

seq-1.pdf

irina · Post by **irina** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:39 pm

That's the first part, front page story from August 10, 1892. It seems to continue inside and I believe the rest of this story ends with details about Bridget staying with her cousin Mrs. Harrington. The best article so far is in "The Sun", August 28, 1892. If necessary I'll do it the old fashioned way & write out the article and type it out. I really am half way back in the stone age even though I have a computer. I was messing around with settings and stuff and can't seem to complete an act. Possibly I need more apps as I have a Chromebook with a touch pad. I think I could email myself the article and then if I had an idea how to email/provide it here, I'd be happy to do it.

"The Sun" had a reporter in Fall River apparently. A number of papers were reading and regurgitating but I'm still impressed with the articles in "The Sun".

Another humorous bit is that in the first days after the crime newspaper sketch artists provided drawings of Lizzie and Abby which must have gone out over the wires as they were widely reproduced. I have never seen these in any modern source. It looks like the artist can only draw one kind of nose or else has a partial face pre-drawn, upon which he changes hair styles, collars, etc.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:48 pm

Here is a page of Newspaper articles on Lizzie:

http://tinyurl.com/msvsxo5
[Open in new window]

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:59 pm

irina wrote:That's the first part, front page story from August 10, 1892. It seems to continue inside and I believe the rest of this story ends with details about Bridget staying with her cousin Mrs. Harrington. The best article so far is in "The Sun", August 28, 1892. If necessary I'll do it the old fashioned way & write out the article and type it out. I really am half way back in the stone age even though I have a computer. I was messing around with settings and stuff and can't seem to complete an act. Possibly I need more apps as I have a Chromebook with a touch pad. I think I could email myself the article and then if I had an idea how to email/provide it here, I'd be happy to do it.

"The Sun" had a reporter in Fall River apparently. A number of papers were reading and regurgitating but I'm still impressed with the articles in "The Sun".

Another humorous bit is that in the first days after the crime newspaper sketch artists provided drawings of Lizzie and Abby which must have gone out over the wires as they were widely reproduced. I have never seen these in any modern source. It looks like the artist can only draw one kind of nose or else has a partial face pre-drawn, upon which he changes hair styles, collars, etc.

Can you download the PDF by clicking on the button in the upper right corner, then save to your desktop and after that attach as an upload to this site. This should work if you have up-to-date Abobe Acrobat although I'm a lifelong Mac lover. I ran DOS and have used Windows over the years but my advice for Chromebook might be less than accurate.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:01 pm

OK, I found the NY 'Sun', Sunday August 28, 1892 article:

http://tinyurl.com/lohwysf
[Open in new window]

irina · Post by **irina** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:32 pm

THAT'S IT!!!!! BLESS YOU!!!!! This is the best article I have read so far. Juicy little tid bits such as, " Bridget refused to swear positively that the family had eaten any pears the day before. She said that she thought they had not eaten any." Of course she is referring to Wednesday but by Thursday pears were an excuse for other ill defined behaviours. Lizzie in the loft slowly eating pears. Uncle John eating pears while not noticing crowds in the yard. Andrew gathering a basket full of pears after emptying the slop pail on the grass. (Another article has Bridget clarifying that the pail of "water" was emptied on the ground, not in the out house.) All of which spawn the tittering about pears and such Lizzie related enterprises as Pear Street Players and Pear Tree Press, etc. Here we have Bridget thinking no one ate pears on Wednesday and the defense desperately trying to prove the stomach ailment came from GREEN PEARS! Amazing!

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:35 pm

The Lizzie Borden Sourcebook has a lot of newspaper articles/snippets on before-the-trial Lizzie stuff, 'colour pieces', there is also an article I read (will have to search for it) which quoted various feminist activists and writers of the time, including Katherine Green, who backed Lizzie. I do think that Lizzie had the backing of various church groups and the Temperance movement until the trial. The Temperance Movement (Lizzie and Emma had taken 'the Pledge') was tremendously influential in the US in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. I'd still say, with few exceptions, newspaper coverage was favourable and fair to Lizzie up until the trial.

The problem with anyone officially making off with Bridget's testimony records is that the authorities must have known that the more serious broadsheet press had printed her Inquest testimony more or less verbatim. What, then, would be the point? As we know, her testimony was indeed recreated from these newspapers and published.

As regards pears, one woman's 'hard and green' is another's 'crisp and delicious'. We don't know what kind of pears were grown on Andrew's trees, whether they were the small firm kind or otherwise. It's hard to imagine that in a hot summer, in the August sun, they would be extremely green.

Maybe Bridget kept away from them because of what else was laying in the yard! I blame the fish and perhaps the mutton for the 'summer sickness'! Bridget might have felt a little defensive if she had cooked the fish!

My own taste runs to very soft and juicy pears, not hard at all, and therefore I don't think I would be picking Andrew's (as many neighbourhood kids and workmen seem to have done.)

irina · Post by **irina** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:16 pm

Everyone seemed to like the pears in general. Many pears fall off the tree green and then ripen.

I keep reading the old papers to find little crumbs of information. A lot of the coverage up through the inquest August 9-11, was very critical of Lizzie. I was surprised at nasty little comments based on how reporters on scene judged her. Then on August 13 one paper said the intensity of public interest had started to wear off and I see things softening. I find these papers very interesting. Some simply read and regurgitated~took if off the wires & published. Some seem to have flat-out made it up. One says Andrew was killed on a velvet sofa and it got more creative from there. That article seemed to miss the mark on every fact. Several papers seemed to have had their own reporters on scene and they did a good job. I'm running into some things I haven't heard before but I don't have any of the modern books on the case. Bridget seems to have been extremely emotional which is not surprising, but everyone around her seems to have been very stoic. I can imagine she was terrified for several reasons. It would have been so easy to blame her and make her pay the price since the Irish were convenient scape-goats, as the Portugese also seem to have been.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:27 pm

You are bringing to our attention some very interesting facts and newspaper reports. Some reporting was just high flights of imagination, I agree. The tabloids today are much the same!

Weren't there notices accompanying adverts for some jobs in 19th century Boston, 'No Irish need apply!'? Yes, I can imagine Bridget feeling frightened and very vulnerable.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:26 pm

Does Lizzie Walk Through Walls.png

If this is a correct quotation of Bridget's testimony, then how did Lizzie get from the laughing unseen from the upstairs when Lizzie cusses the lock to then coming down the backstairs? I would seem from this write up that Bridget is making innuendos that Lizzie is guilty.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:55 pm

Teleportation, as in Harry Potter?

Sorry!

Seriously, it might be a mistake by the reporter, who, in the paragraph above refers to Mrs Borden. Now, if SHE had appeared on the stairs that would be something! If not, then either Lizzie had a secret key which unlocked a door between the two halves of the house after moving furniture, or Bridget simply got into a muddle when giving testimony, if you are being kind.

It's a bit of a conundrum, as doesn't Lizzie state that she (Lizzie) was downstairs when Bridget was struggling with the door? That laugh is an odd thing to make up, on the other hand, surely Bridget would remember which stairs Lizzie came down if not telling porkies.

Why would Lizzie be in the back part of the house, anyway? Why would Bridget be in the kitchen, come to that? Wasn't she supposedly finishing off the sitting-room then the dining room inside windows?
I believe there is a little deviation in Bridget's testimony between inquest, prelim and trial, as would be natural, but not huge differences. Is this report from the Inquest or trial, deb ?

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:24 pm

Also in that article is a white package that seems to disappear around the time Andrew takes to key to the safe and goes upstairs for a few minutes.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:51 pm

The police went through all the papers in the safe, didn't they? I believe they had to break into the dressingroom (where the safe was) because no-one could find the door key. I find it hard to believe that the maid would have known a key left on the mantelpiece shelf would have been the key to her employer's safe. That's far more likely to have been a little nugget picked up from overhearing police talk with Emma. As I am a 'Lizzie dun it' gal, it seems to me that key deposited there is even more of a sign to Lizzie from Andrew that "I know who the daylight burglar was, so be careful!"

I'm going to be prosaic here. As Andrew was going to have a board meeting that morning with his bank directors (postponed because he felt seedy) could that package he brought back have been something unexciting like the minutes of the last meeting?

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:59 am

It would seem that whatever it was, it merited enough importance to be taken directly to the safe upstairs.

PossumPie · Post by **PossumPie** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:33 am

One bit of context for Bridget Sullivan...The great Irish Potato Famine of 1849-52 caused widespread starvation and disease. Irish in HUGE number flocked to America and were met with anger and discrimination. Signs reading "Help Wanted-Irish need not apply" were everywhere. The Irish immigrating here were very poor and uneducated. They took the lowliest jobs. We tend to forget the discrimination against them, but Bridget was Irish. While the Bordens SEEMED to treat her well, the press and the rumor mill may not have been so understanding.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:40 am

I have an off-topic question: Debbie, how did you crop a part of the newspaper? I have a couple of sections which I'd like to post and comment on. It would be a big help if I could crop these sections, and then post them as an attachment, with comments and questions below the attachment.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:12 am

Something I learned from Harry, several years ago, is that a very long URL does not work when posting them on the forum. He provided a way of shortening the URL so that it works on the forum; here is the link: http://tinyurl.com/

This is the link I used to post the NY 'Sun', Sunday August 28, 1892 article. I have this link added to my tool bar, and it works like magic!

Curiousmind2014 · Post by **Curiousmind2014** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:31 am

Thanks Irina! Thats a great link. There are so many things that I did not know of. I understand that journalism could not be trusted from that time. But still I find it interesting what Bridget had to say.

This is my read on Bridget's stance on the whole case irrespective of what she said. She came across as someone who wants to be honest, open and work with the police in trying to resolve the case before the trial based on her statements. However, when you read the trial, you find her as someone who is holding herself back from talking much. She gives precise answers to the point.

Maybe I am reading too much into it. However, I find her stance changing from someone who wants to help the cops unearth the truth to someone who does not want to be linked with it in anyway, nor stir the situation up to make a material impact on the case. From what I understand, she maintains that stance for the rest of her life. I find it interesting because Victoria Lincoln, in her book "Private Disgrace", mentions that both the sisters and Jennings were involved in buying witnesses. Missing inquest archives of Bridget and Lizzie makes me believe that bribery, corruption and pressures from influential people may have played a bigger role in acquittal of Lizzie than we previously imagined.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:44 am

twinsrwe wrote:I have an off-topic question: Debbie, how did you crop a part of the newspaper? I have a couple of sections which I'd like to post and comment on. It would be a big help if I could crop these sections, and then post them as an attachment, with comments and questions below the attachment.

I didn't crop; I enlarged and then took a partial screenshot of exactly what I wanted...:-) .. In case you don't have the screen shot commands at your fingertips:

http://www.take-a-screenshot.org/

The recent pictures I posted have all been .png files.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:05 am

Curiousmind2014 wrote:Thanks Irina! Thats a great link. There are so many things that I did not know of. I understand that journalism could not be trusted from that time. But still I find it interesting what Bridget had to say.

This is my read on Bridget's stance on the whole case irrespective of what she said. She came across as someone who wants to be honest, open and work with the police in trying to resolve the case before the trial based on her statements. However, when you read the trial, you find her as someone who is holding herself back from talking much. She gives precise answers to the point.

Maybe I am reading too much into it. However, I find her stance changing from someone who wants to help the cops unearth the truth to someone who does not want to be linked with it in anyway, nor stir the situation up to make a material impact on the case. From what I understand, she maintains that stance for the rest of her life. I find it interesting because Victoria Lincoln, in her book "Private Disgrace", mentions that both the sisters and Jennings were involved in buying witnesses. Missing inquest archives of Bridget and Lizzie makes me believe that bribery, corruption and pressures from influential people may have played a bigger role in acquittal of Lizzie than we previously imagined.

I totally agree. Emma spent a fortune procuring the best defense her murdered father's money could buy and, in the process, opening the door to judicial bias and probably witness and jury tampering if the individual could be leveraged one way or another.

irina · Post by **irina** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:11 am

Darn it! Debbie and I posted at the same time & mine got lost & didn't post.

These earliest reports may show us how people, especially Bridget, were reacting before defense attorneys started picking apart and polishing testimony. By late August we can see how attorneys are softening testimony that is almost like excited utterance a week after the murders.

From the "Pittsburgh Dispatch", front page, 8/10/1892 we have: "On Friday there was found i the cellar of the Borden house a bundle of rags. These rags were concealed under a bucket turned upside down. They were smeared with blood as though an ax had been wiped on them. Dr. Dolan took these rags and sent them to Prof. Wood of Boston. He also sent a strip of carpet dyed with the blood of Mrs. Borden.

"Prof. Wood to-day [sic] said that the blood on the rags was human blood beyond all doubt."

Because of Wood's pronouncement Bridget was summoned immediately to the police headquarters. She went willingly. "Speaking of the identity of the murderer, she said that she was too worn and worried to talk of that."

"Then she exclaimed suddenly, 'The murderer should clear me,' after that she would say nothing."

So Bridget was taken before Judge Blaisdell where she "told and retold her story".

"The girl stood as long as she could. Then she broke down. She told her examiners, it is said, that she did not believe Lizzie Borden left the house at all. She was asked why she thought Miss Borden had not gone out. She answered with sobs. The District Attorney waited in vain for her to regain her composure, and at 12 o'clock the inquiry was stopped."

Lizzie was called to testify in the afternoon to re-tell her story.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:19 am

Bridget was thoroughly fed up with the whole thing by October 1892, when she made her last witness statement saying she disliked living in New Bedford jail, with the Josiah Hunt family. She said she wanted to get away.

To be fair though, Victoria Lincoln offers up quite a few allegations, with no proof to hand. With regard to the testimony, I reiterate an earlier post, as far as Lizzie's concerned, the West Bedford broadsheet newspaper had her statements covered verbatim and the broadsheet Press did a similar, if less impressive job with Bridget, so there wasn't much point in having the file (Volume 1) disappear. I still think it more likely to have been a clerk wanting a souvenir.

Robinson earned a huge fee. If anybody was involved in hiding testimony (or twisting it) it's likely to be Jennings and him acting together, and Emma signing the cheques.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:33 am

Uhlenhuth hadn't developed his test for distinguishing human from mammalian blood at that point, so Professor Wood's observations about the rags in the pail are certainly startling!

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:35 am

I agree...the honing and polishing happens in every trial. This sounds very believable, but I take everything published in newspapers of that time with the same grain of salt I take what's on the internet these days. Nonetheless, this sounds very believable and it's not something I recall seeing elsewhere. I am beginning to see Bridget as complicit in the murders, either by omission (fear, being paid off, loyalty, who knows?) or actively protecting Lizzie. Or actively protecting herself and thus protecting Lizzie. My guess would be Bridget wanted the murderer caught by someone else, had a damned good idea it was Lizzie, but feared the Borden money and influence would be turned against her. A jury of Lizzie's male peers might not have had the stomach to hang a woman of her class, but they wouldn't have hesitated to hang an Irish serving girl.

August 30, 1867 - Bridget Durgan, a 22 year old servant girl of Irish descent was hanged in the jail yard at New Brunswick, New Jersey before a crowd of noisy and boisterous crowd of 2000 people, for the murder of her mistress, Mrs. Mary Ellen Coriell, whom she had stabbed to death. She wore a brown suit, white collar and white gloves, and walked steadily to the gallows. A crowd of some 2,000 people watched as Bridget was jerked into the air by the mechanism (instead of being dropped through a trap). She died very hard, struggling and convulsing for some minutes in the agonies of strangulation.

From http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/amfemhang.html

Curiousmind2014 · Post by **Curiousmind2014** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:57 pm

I really wonder what would happen if all that is true across every civilization, in the past and present were unveiled. I would like to believe that we won't be proud of our human race anymore :)

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:18 pm

Curryong wrote:Uhlenhuth hadn't developed his test for distinguishing human from mammalian blood at that point, so Professor Wood's observations about the rags in the pail are certainly startling!

Wood's testimony:

"The blue skirt has, near the pocket, a brownish smooch, which resembled blood, but a test showed it was not. Another, lower down, proved not to be blood. The waist had not even a suspicion of bloodstain. The white skirt had a small blood spot, six inches from the bottom of the skirt. It was 1/16 inch in diameter: the size of the head of a small pin. The corpuscles, examined under a high-power microscope, averaged 1/3243 of an inch, and it is therefore consistent with its being human blood. Some animals show a similar measurement: the seal, the opossum and one variety of guinea pig. The rabbit and the dog come pretty near."

This is how things run amok...what Woods says above (although not about the same blood sample but his approach was probably similar) is not the same as "human blood beyond all doubt"....which is why I am cautious about newspaper reporting. Even though Woods was likely right in his assessments.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:19 pm

Curiousmind2014 wrote:I really wonder what would happen if all that is true across every civilization, in the past and present were unveiled. I would like to believe that we won't be proud of our human race anymore :)

I'm already not proud.

Reading the list of women who were hanged made me want to cry. Most of them were black, several Native Americans or Hispanics and recent immigrants. One was a 12 year-old and another was a young black woman, age 17:

"March 10, 1865 -17 year old Amy Spain, an African American, was hanged from a tree in the town of Darlington, South Carolina for treason and conduct unbecoming a slave. When she heard that the Union army was close at hand and would occupy the town she expressed her satisfaction by clasping her hands and exclaiming, "Bless the Lord the Yankees have come!" For her it should have meant the end of slavery, but the townsfolk saw it differently."

http://www.executedtoday.com/category/w ... -carolina/

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:29 pm

debbiediablo wrote:
twinsrwe wrote:I have an off-topic question: Debbie, how did you crop a part of the newspaper? I have a couple of sections which I'd like to post and comment on. It would be a big help if I could crop these sections, and then post them as an attachment, with comments and questions below the attachment.
I didn't crop; I enlarged and then took a partial screenshot of exactly what I wanted...:-) .. In case you don't have the screen shot commands at your fingertips:

http://www.take-a-screenshot.org/

The recent pictures I posted have all been .png files.

Thanks, Debbie!

Now, once I get the hang of how to do this, I will post the parts I have questions/comments on.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:40 pm

twinsrwe wrote:
debbiediablo wrote:
twinsrwe wrote:I have an off-topic question: Debbie, how did you crop a part of the newspaper? I have a couple of sections which I'd like to post and comment on. It would be a big help if I could crop these sections, and then post them as an attachment, with comments and questions below the attachment.
I didn't crop; I enlarged and then took a partial screenshot of exactly what I wanted...:-) .. In case you don't have the screen shot commands at your fingertips:

http://www.take-a-screenshot.org/

The recent pictures I posted have all been .png files.
Thanks, Debbie! Now, once I get the hang of how to do this, I will post the parts I have questions/comments on.

One of the nice things about this site is that it allows for .png files. Often times they can be converted to .jpg simply by changing .png to.jpg but not always. Some sites will not allow a .png upload. I totally love screen shots...use them when I order or pay for items online, to copy info from .pdf, to copy photos that disallow download, to copy text that disallows copy and paste...

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:00 pm

irina wrote:Darn it! Debbie and I posted at the same time & mine got lost & didn't post.

I don't know if this happens to everyone but it happens to me, too, and I try to remember to copy anything I type before hitting submit, just in case it's lost forever in the cyberjunkyard. I don't always remember to do it, but it does help to keep the hypertension at bay...

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:45 pm

That report of the public hanging was horrific, debbie, but all too common in earlier times. By the 1890's public hangmen had developed 'the long drop' technique, based on the person's weight, so the whole grotesque business was 'efficient'. (By the way, the situation with lethal injections at the moment appears to be having the same effect as the 1860's report.)

I agree with you re Bridget. In spite of her remark before the trial about 'a horrible man' killing Mrs Borden, I think Bridget always had strong suspicions about Lizzie but learned to keep them to herself. I believe Bridget tried to assist Lizzie while on the stand, but not to the extent of leaving herself open to suspicion. Yes, I do think Borden money and her own position as a member of a disliked minority did play its part though I don't believe she was paid off.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:14 pm

debbiediablo wrote:
irina wrote:Darn it! Debbie and I posted at the same time & mine got lost & didn't post.
I don't know if this happens to everyone but it happens to me, too, and I try to remember to copy anything I type before hitting submit, just in case it's lost forever in the cyberjunkyard. I don't always remember to do it, but it does help to keep the hypertension at bay...

I have not had this happen to me, but as a suggestion, you may want to send a PM to Stefani to see if she feels this could be a problem with the forum.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:14 pm

debbiediablo wrote:... One of the nice things about this site is that it allows for .png files. Often times they can be converted to .jpg simply by changing .png to.jpg but not always. Some sites will not allow a .png upload. I totally love screen shots...use them when I order or pay for items online, to copy info from .pdf, to copy photos that disallow download, to copy text that disallows copy and paste...

Thanks for the additional info, Debbie. It is very much appreciated!

irina · Post by **irina** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:16 pm

It's only twice my posts have been lost because someone else posted at the same time. I'll see if I can make a copy and work from there. The first time it happened it was my last post for the night and when I went back to the main page I noted the Curryong had posted where I did, her name was there instead of mine. Sure enougn her post was there and mine wasn't. I found it humorous that a post from Australia can beat out a post from the US. The internet is an amazing thing.

I have read Massachusetts wasn't too anxious to execute women because a pregnant woman had been killed back in the 1600s or something. I am very much against capital punishment. The last execution mentioned in the US was with the drug alprazolam, I read in the papers. I just checked that in my nursing drug reference and see that that is Xanax. There was talk of using propofol which is also called Diprivan. Propofol is what Michael Jackson OD-ed on. Jakson used it to go to sleep. (I highly sympathise with MJ because I have trouble going to sleep but I'd never take anything because that just causes more problems.) Propofol and Versed are anaesthetics that are also supposed to induce amnesia. For example I had a colonoscopy under versed which the doctor said was like a twilight sleep and I would be able to respond to commands, etc. (I have no idea what I may have been asked to do. A camera is up...well you know what they do...did someone say "smile"?) Anyway I just remember going to sleep and waking up feeling fine. The point I'm getting to is I wonder if a person is being deliberately OD-ed (executed), would they know what is going on? I'm thoroughly disgusted that our country, alone in the civilised world, still allows execution. (And I'm politically "conservative", BTW.)

I don't think Lizzie would have ever been hanged. She would have gone to an asylum or something. I have a feeling there was some inside knowledge/feeling that Lizzie had led an actively good life up until the murders and I also have a feeling that prosecution and defense had some idea that something was very wrong in the household and that IF she did the murders it wasn't for pure greed.

The bit that I copied and reproduced above, about Bridget's experiences at the inquest, was covered in a number of papers. I feel there is quite a bit of truth here. It was a big thing at that stage of the investigation, whether Lizzie said she was in the yard or in the barn. It appears she first said the was in the barn "vault". Do I take this to mean privy? Then she said she was in the yard. Then she had the more elaborate story. Maybe Lizzie WAS in the "vault" and didn't want to use that as an alibi so she concocted something bigger and it got out of hand. In a time when the word "limb" must always be used instead of "leg" which was risque, it is unlikely a lady would want to use a truthful trip/time spent using the privy for an alibi. Poor Lizzie's very private issues were very much exposed as it was.

I think Bridget was very fond of Abby and may have grieved more than many others, and was horribly distraught at the inquest. I think too that Bridget also liked Lizzie and Emma.

Measuring the size of blood "corpuscles" was done for a long time and was considered fairly accurate, for what it's worth. I never caught up with any testimony on the rags UNDER the pail that were sent to Prof. Wood. Possibly they were explained as having been used by doctors or those doing the autopsy or by someone cleaning up. The rags were found on Friday according to the article. Whatever they were or were not it looks like this find may have had something to do with heating up the investigation and it wasn't real helpful to Lizzie when Bridget blurted out that she didn't think Lizzie ever left the house. What got blurted out here and there early in the investigation is extremely interesting but there isn't much that is new (to me).

We can really see how the defense lawyers worked with all the effort over "green pears" making the family sick. Early on they thought they had to utterly destroy the issue of poisoning and they grasped at whatever they could. Dr. Bowen in his testimony seemed to blame the "cream cake" and like I said on another thread I rather imagine an egg rich custard filling in a cake that wasn't refrigerated.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:10 am

I do believe the newer drug for lethal injections is Midalozam or versed rather than Alprazolam which is xanax. Versed is combined with hydromorphone and then the executed man gasps for almost two hours following administration. I have mixed emotions about capitol punishment. There exists a small group criminals who are such a risk to society that allowing them to live makes no sense. And then some whose crimes are beyond heinous. I have no problem seeing these people executed. But too many others, especially in Florida and Texas, are sentenced to die for crimes that in other states would allow parole after 40 years. This is not equal justice under the law even though it is also a state's right.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:48 am

I too don't think Lizzie would have hanged, given her sex and class. I think if the verdict had gone the other way and the appeals process failed Robinson etc would have done a deal and Lizzie would have spent a decade or two in a mental institution.

Abby was supposedly extremely fond of baker's cream buns. It's amusing that she ate a pork cutlet for her Wednesday breakfast BEFORE scuttling over to Dr Bowen's complaining of poison!

I believe the 'vault' Lizzie mentioned was the loft under the vaulted roof, as distinct from the main (storehouse) body of the barn.

The last man hanged in Australia was Ronald Ryan in 1967. He was a petty crook who escaped from jail and shot a warder in the process. Huge protests accompanied his execution and the law was formally changed some years afterwards (in 1985). It was said that the Premier of Victoria was determined that Ryan should hang because a criminal who had killed a clergyman shortly before had been reprieved on appeal.

PossumPie · Post by **PossumPie** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 6:01 am

Ah, a bit of controversy in the forum. We agree so much lately, some friendly debate is healthy! What I get sick of is every execution the focus is on the poor sad man being so "unmercifully" put to death. I NEVER ONCE hear of the victims or their families. The countless people that the murderer tortured, sexually abused, killed, for their own sick pleasures. I also STRONGLY disagree that capital punishment is not a deterrent...the monster who was executed certainly won't ever kill again...so it did deter him.

I LOVE Mark Twain's quote in Tom Sawyer about finding the murderer Injun Joe dead:

"This funeral stopped the further growth of one thing -- the petition to the governor for Injun Joe's pardon. The petition had been largely signed; many tearful and eloquent meetings had been held, and a committee of sappy women been appointed to go in deep mourning and wail around the governor, and implore him to be a merciful ass and trample his duty under foot. Injun Joe was believed to have killed five citizens of the village, but what of that? If he had been Satan himself there would have been plenty of weaklings ready to scribble their names to a pardon-petition, and drip a tear on it from their permanently impaired and leaky water-works."

irina · Post by **irina** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:11 am

Consider how capital punishment would have worked out in the Borden case. Found guilty, Lizzie probably would not have been executed. Bridget would have been. A man probably would have been executed. If a male relative~say an illegitimate son or nephew~was found guilty I would expect the family to fight hard to save him and probably would succeed. (One theory I have of the crime is that it was a male relative, Lizzie knew he was there and took the blame so there wouldn't be the shame of a family member being hanged. She had a better chance of getting off. My definition of a male relative is vague~I am not saying Billy Borden or illegitimate son necessarily.)

Most people here think Lizzie was guilty. Even so she was found innocent and went on to live many more years during which she did many good things. I'm not saying she was Mother Teresa, but for the people and animals she helped along the way, and through her will she must have seemed like an angel. Consider too how Emma would have suffered if her sister had been executed. Family always suffers. It might be fashionable at this time to find a relative over a hundred years ago, who was "hanged as a horse thief", but at the time family members suffer for crimes they never committed.

Violence begets violence in my opinion. In the old newspapers, running along side Borden articles are some articles I think have to do with the Hatfield & McCoy feud, or something similar. There is a killing and a hanging and family members swear revenge. Then there is more killing and hanging and more lives destroyed.

Charles Manson and his family won't get out of prison. Neither will BTK. Florida executed Ted Bundy but before that happened Gary Ridgeway (Green River Killer) was already leaving bodies in the state of Washington where Bundy had started. A couple decades later Ridgeway was caught, pleaded guilty to dozens of murders and got life without parole. Ridgeway now resides in maximum security in Walla Walla, WA, a couple hundred miles up the road from where I live and I feel perfectly safe. Truly, Ted won't get out on a technicality and won't kill again. There are plenty to take his place. I don't think committing cold blooded murder in the name of the state is worth the cost financially and emotionally to society. Victims have to reexperience crimes as cases wind through the courts. Life without parole denies the guilty the notoriety many of them seek.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 5:54 pm

I just finished reading the Masterson book which was funny and somewhat thoughtful through the first half...and then plunges off the rails, down a steep embankment and into Lake Superior in the second. Even so, he seems to have his facts straight; it's his supposition that runs wildly amok.

He made two allegations that are new to me:

1) Another incident, this one relating to Bridget's peculiar behavior after the first murder was discovered, is more difficult to explain. Dr. Bowen asked for a sheet (i.e., one sheet) to cover Andrew Borden's body. Bridget, accompanied by Adelaide Churchill, went up the back stairs to obtain the sheet from a linen closet located in a small dressing room on the second floor. According to Mrs. Churchill, Bridget asked her, "Will two sheets be enough?" Addie replied, "I think so; one will cover a person."

Masterton, William (2010-11-07). Lizzie Didn’t Do It!, (Kindle Locations 3225-3230). Branden Books. Kindle Edition.

2. A few minutes later, Lizzie asked Mrs. Churchill to try to locate Abby. Specifically, she suggested looking for her in "Mrs. Borden's room." Lizzie was referring either to the dressing room or to the senior Bordens' bedroom, both of which could be reached only by the back stairs. Yet Bridget led Mrs. Churchill up the front stairs to the guest room, where they discovered Abby's body. Only by a macabre stretch of the imagination could that have been described as "Mrs. Borden's room."

Masterton, William (2010-11-07). Lizzie Didn’t Do It!, (Kindle Locations 3231-3234). Branden Books. Kindle Edition.

If either of these is fact, then it's interesting. If both are true, then Bridget should've had some tough questions to answer.

The problem with Bridget as a suspect is she had no motive...or no discernible motive. Do we know if Minnie Green in Montana was related (unlikely given the common surname) to previous Borden maid Mary Grein?

Bridget was paid $4 a week plus room and board with Thursday afternoons and Sundays off. Her household responsibilities were far less than most serving girls of that era. Somehow this generosity of spirit doesn't gibe with the hard-nosed Andrew Borden of the business world - the landlord who raised the rent when a tenant got a raise in wages or the guy who switched out cheap caskets for expensive. Although Bridget may have been under Abby's supervision, there can be no doubt who handed over her wages at week's end.

irina · Post by **irina** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:17 pm

Both points are full of confusion but may have simple explanations. Much has been made of both items but this is one time the simplest explanations probably suffice.

Taking the second one first, Bridget and Mrs. Churchill had already gone to Mrs. Borden's room to get the sheets. Therefore they knew Abby wasn't there. I would suggest that in the intensity of the moment perhaps Lizzie didn't consider this fact and suggested they search upstairs. Therefore they logically went up the other stairs. This all works to make Lizzie look guilty but maybe nobody was thinking clearly.

As far as the two sheets, heaven knows what Bridget was thinking about. Was she thinking about putting one under the body and one over? What might the custom have been in Ireland? Were corpses wrapped in sheets/shrouds? Surely two sheets would have been needed to make a shroud for Andrew. It makes sense to think of putting a dead body onto one sheet and covering it with a second sheet. I figure Dr. Bowen just wanted a sheet to cover the body for decency's sake.

Some accounts say Lizzie directed Mrs. Churchill and Abby up the front stairs. I have spent several days driving myself crazy reading old newspapers with microscopic print. Many accounts were confused about "back stairs", "front stairs", and many other items. Sometimes many re-readings simply show the reporter or other source was horribly confused. I find the Borden house terribly confusing even while looking at the blue prints. I spent an hour today figuring out why the killer (intruder of course) didn't go up into the other half of the attic, next to Bridget's room. Even though the house is like a duplex it looks like the attic only had one access via the "back stairs". Guess I'll have to go there sometime.

From all the reading I got the idea Bridget was honest in the beginning, though her testimony was worked over by the time of the trial. I think Bridget was devastated and had liked Abby very much. I also suppose she was terrified of her position in the house where/when the murders took place.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:14 pm

Yes, thanks Irina. I had never encountered either of those two facts/factoids before. You are right. Looking upstairs in the back would make no sense given they were up there a short while before to get sheets. (This is why multiple brains are better than one...

) As for the shroud, what comes to my mind is William Wallace's father being rolled into a shroud in Braveheart so maybe Bridget saw the movie, too. Andrew, IMO, did a good job of taking a duplex and making into a home where his adult daughters had their privacy and so did he and Abby - notwithstanding the near dozen doors opening between upstairs rooms and into closets.

This is interesting if you haven't see before: the Borden upstairs. X marks a lock.

irina · Post by **irina** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:44 pm

I have seen that floor plan. Thanks for posting it again. Until today I had thought the attic was divided in half like the rest of the house and that there must be a stairway from Lizzie's landing to the other half of the attic. Thought I had seen that in a floor plan but apparently not. That's why no one ever suggests an intruder hid in the attic. I still think an intruder could have hidden in the "clothes press" that opened into the guest room. He could have planned on anyone who discovered Abby's body screaming and running away, at which point he could make his escape. For some reason nobody considered that either, although Jennings considered the DOWNSTAIRS closet to be a possible hiding place for an intruder.