The House

Oscar · Post by **Oscar** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 11:38 pm

Shelley, I was wondering where a lot of the furnishings in the house were sourced, especially the bedroom set in the sitting room. What kind of bed is that? I've never seen anything like it anywhere, and it so closely resembles the one that was there in 1892. The furnishings/antiques must have cost a fortune alone!

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:09 am

The Renassaince Revival walnut bed and dresser and washstand with marble top are all dead ringers for the original set there in 1892. It was really important to Ron Evans that the two crime scenes were accurate. I understand that Ron and Martha McGinn traveled north into NH, Vermont and Maine to collect some of the real antique pieces, including the old stove in the kitchen which was repiped for gas. It was originally a woodstove.

The furniture in Abby's and Andrew's room and also Lizzie's are about the same vintage and style as the guestroom. Furniture on the third floor is repro, in the Victorian style as is all the furniture in the parlor. The Heirloom Company down south supplied the parlor. The little pump organ standing in for Lizzie's piano, is antique.

Currently we are on our second black sofa in the sitting room. The first one, after thousands of guests and 2 reupholsterings got tired and is in the gift shop. The "new" old sofa was resprung and recovered at the beginning of this season, and is a great stand -in for the 1892 sofa. The red velvet chair in there is a basic wing chair- probably not an antique, although the low rocker in the corner is. The little tripod stand between the doors of the hall and parlor is a good stand-in for the original and is an antique. The engraving over the sofa is a copy of what was really there, thanks to Len Rebello. Sunday Afternoon Under the Elms is the name of it.

I have heard the diningroom furniture (which is 1920"s vintage) came out of Maplecroft. Lizzie did have a small breakfast room off the kitchen- so maybe....

The third floor is all repro, the sewing machine in the Jennings room came out of Maplecroft and was used by Lizzie's dressmaker there. There is one skirt and one dress of about 1907-1910 vintage which belonged to Lizzie. The hall tree in the front hall is an antique. Of course many things need to be fine-tuned. Lee Ann is looking for a small table and kersone lamp for the sitting room to put in front of the fireplace, and eventually I hope a kitchen table will appear. Still a work in progress.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:13 am

I should correct something- the third floor sitting area has a charming little sofa, which is an antique and holds two comfortably. All the trunks up on the third floor are also vintage. I have always wondered if that little sitting area was there in 1892 -I hope poor Bridget had one-she had so little else.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:00 pm

The attic sitting room is adorable.

However, the *new* sofa in the sitting room has no casters.
The bed and bureau in the guestroom also have no casters. According to the crime scene photos, they should have. I wonder how much higher these pieces would sit if they had those casters?

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:17 pm

These brown porcelain sofa castors (circa 1870) measure 2 1/2 " from the bottom of the cup (which attaches to the sofa leg) to the bottom of the wheel. The cup is nickel, the wheel is porcelain.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:33 pm

Thanks Shelley!
Two and a half inches higher on casters! Eeek!
Imagine that bed!

Oscar · Post by **Oscar** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:40 pm

I bet you could have a better view of Abby under the bed, with the bed on those casters, next re-enactment day!

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:29 pm

I hadn't thought of that! Yes, indeed actually those old 1860's Renaissance Revival beds were low to the floor- not like the tall colonial-style beds where you needed steps to get in. The bed was described as "low" somewhere in the witness reports I think.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:28 am

Kat @ Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:33 pm wrote:Thanks Shelley!
Two and a half inches higher on casters! Eeek!
Imagine that bed!

But in those days they only had a mattress, no box springs?
Many years ago a new mattress set replaced a real old set from the 1950s (spare bed room). The old ones were about 3-4" high, the new ones 6" high. An short old lady w/ arthritis had a problem getting into bed.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:45 pm

I don't understand what is the project? To find out what was in the house? Which HOuse? Maplecroft?

Are you trying to make a doll house that looks like Maplecroft? Just curious. Really wasnt understanding what you wanted.

Oscar · Post by **Oscar** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:43 pm

"Oh' build me a home"
I wonder what it would cost to build a full scale replica house like 92 Second St. today. I was actually quite impressed by the size and build quality of the house when I first visited. It's always described as small and otherwise humble, in regards to Andrew's wealth and what he could have afforded his family. Despite it's lack of hallways, it is a pretty large home. Poor Emma did however, have the smallest room.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:23 am

snokkums @ Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:45 pm wrote:I don't understand what is the project? To find out what was in the house? Which HOuse? Maplecroft?

Are you trying to make a doll house that looks like Maplecroft? Just curious. Really wasnt understanding what you wanted.

When the B&B was going to open, several people got together and tried to figure out how to decorate #92 Second Street, the Borden house, so that it would look most authentic to 1892.
It was owned partly by Ms. McGinn. Her friends were Bill Pavao and people like Len Rebello, and Bernie Sullivan (and I don't know who else)- and they and her partner Ron Evans, combed thru newspapers and testimonies in the trial to find clews to what the furnishings were- and they had those crime scene pictures as well.
This was c. 1996. I think they opened in 1997.

When the Borden house was sold (April 2004 or 2005?), some people were no longer affiliated with the house as a "Museum" and took their personal belongings out of there that had contributed to its earlier look. Anyway, I think the topic here is about trying to duplicate that search on what the furnishings were in the Borden house at the day of the murders, and restore it, by looking in testimony etc. It's really rather hard to do.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:56 am

oh ok. thanks I got confuse. But it would be kind of neat to build a minature house of 92nd street.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:51 pm

Oscar @ Sun Sep 17, 2006 12:43 am wrote:"Oh' build me a home"
I wonder what it would cost to build a full scale replica house like 92 Second St. today. I was actually quite impressed by the size and build quality of the house when I first visited. It's always described as small and otherwise humble, in regards to Andrew's wealth and what he could have afforded his family. Despite it's lack of hallways, it is a pretty large home. Poor Emma did however, have the smallest room.

If I remember right it was built circa 1840 as a two-family house. Did Andrew acquire it by foreclosure on a loan? I read that he called in all the carpenters who had a mortgage w/ him and told them to work for free or he would foreclose on their mortgages (call the loan). From E Pearson's "Trial of LB" as I remember it.
If I'm wrong, we'll hear about it.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:03 pm

snokkums @ Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:56 am wrote:oh ok. thanks I got confuse. But it would be kind of neat to build a minature house of 92nd street.

I agree 1000%!
It would be reallyneat!
THey sort of built a *dollhouse* sized house for that video Stef and I were in, but it wasn't an exact replica.
We didn't see it in person, BTW- only in the video.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:01 am

That television show last year around Halloween featuring the Luminol had a scale model of the house with little rooms and everything inside.

bobarth · Post by **bobarth** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:06 pm

Give me a couple more months or so and I will have the 92nd Street minature I am working on done.

Bobbie

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:41 pm

My twin brother is currently working on a scale model of the sitting room for me. Its in play scale, 2 inches equals 1 foot, which is Barbie sized so it will be quite big when done. The biggest problem has been some of the measurements and then the wallpaper and carpeting.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:48 pm

I always carry a tape measure Susan, if you need exact measurements of anything.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:50 am

Shelley @ Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:01 am wrote:That television show last year around Halloween featuring the Luminol had a scale model of the house with little rooms and everything inside.

That's the house I was referring to. Stef wanted it and asked the company if they were keeping it- I think Lange or Morrelli (is that his name?) were using it in lectures.
It really was scale?- do you know?

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:51 am

Thank you, Shelley, I appreciate that.

One thing I've been curious about that I can usually only see parts of is beneath the sitting room windows. It appears that there is some sort of wood paneling beneath them instead of just wallpapered wall? From all the other measurements that you've given so far, I think we may have the sitting room wrapped up. The next project will be the guest room, I may have some questions on measurements there.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:05 pm

Just wallpaper!

The mop boards are pretty wide by today's standards. (10 6/8")

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:56 am

Thanks for the picture.
Wow that's a high mopboard (I guess that is like a baseboard?)
In your picture it looks to be even with the height of the bottom board of the closet door. Is that so, or an illusion due to the angle of the photo vs. door?
There seems to be some symmetry there.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:45 am

I never noticed but the baseboard does seem to be the width of the door crosspiece at the bottom. Mopboard seems to be a Yankee term- we always called 'em baseboards down in Maryland!

Oscar · Post by **Oscar** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:01 am

The term Mopboard sounds very English or New England to me. We use the term Baseboards here in NY as well.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 8:45 am

Years ago in the Dark Rose Lizzie forum I remember posting a message inquiring what a mopboard was. I had no idea.

I'm also from NY (Yonkers) and we always called them baseboards.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:16 pm

I think if you have bare floors, even at least around the edges of carpeting, the extra wide *baseboard* was so that when one mopped the wallpaper would not get wet, and eventually peel.
But was wallpaper common when that house was built, c. 1845? Or wallpaper was a newer decoration done up maybe in Andrew's day- and wide mop boards came along at the same time?
I'm only surmising. But in my house, my sister was mopping (with a real mop of yarn, which I never used) an empty spare bedroom floor and the next thing I knew the phone no longer worked. I figured out very quickly that mop water, flung around a bit, got into the phone jack that was situated just above our little 3" baseboards. She had no idea. I knew immediately.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:21 am

Everything you never wanted to know about wallpaper

http://www.wallpaperinstaller.com/wallp ... story.html

I think there are a few references to dark, rich papers in the Borden house by that lady reporter. The papers that are currently in the house might be a tad too pastel. Bradbury and Bradbury historic papers has some great old Victorian papers.
http://www.bradbury.com/victorian/victorian.html

I see from that website the cabbage rose was popular. Hanging out in Victorian houses a lot, I notice a lot more detail and a lot more wood was put into moldings, trims, ceiling moldings, stairways, bannisters, and the like. Today I think the standard 3" is cheaper and has become sort of the expected norm for builders. I suspect the wider molding was not only decorative, but probably did have some value in protecting the walls at foot level from bumps and scuffs and water from industrious floor washing. Today they'd be good vacuum cleaner bumpers!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:30 am

Thanks for the info!
The Birthday card I made for you on your birthday topic was on Wallpaper, believe it or not!
I have a wide sampling on my desktop for backgrounds and screen savers!
(But that doesn't mean I know anything about them except "William Morris.")
I also have quilts saved from online

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:23 am

I have often wondered if Lizzie kept up with the styles in Maplecroft interiors. Bob Dube says the dining room wallpaper is from her days there as are the two Tiffany wall sconces in that room. The diningroom is one of the loveliest in Maplecroft- second only to the library upstairs in my opinion.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 11:54 am

My understanding is that wallpaper goes back to the 18th cent. if not earlier. Painting bare plaster wall (The Last Supper) is even older.
Much cheaper to cover with mass-produced prints than to hire an artist.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:09 am

The parlor received 2 wonderful old 1890's lamps this weekend. Both are known as "piano lamps" with chimneys and Gone with the Wind hand-painted globe shades. They have brass oil reservoirs, but have been wired for electricity. They look great and have added a century to the "feel" of the room. Naturally, I forgot to take a photo! Lee Ann is hard at work adding wonderful touches to the house-, next project is a parlor fernstand and fern, then an small Ogee empire mirror for the sitting room. It's sort of like furnishing a large dollhouse. But so much fun re-creating the Past!

Oscar · Post by **Oscar** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 12:16 pm

Shelley, The lamps sound wonderful and I hope to see a picture sometime. I suspect andrew was fairly conservative when it came to the actual decor, furnishings, and decorations of the house knowing how frugal he was. But who knows, maybe he let Abby have her way with furnishing the house etc. although, she did put up with having a privey in the basement!

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:53 pm

Actually we know Abby bought the lace curtains for the parlor (Rebello), there was a pull chain water closet in the cellar for the girls (privy in the barn), and the furniture was said to be 30 years out of style when they moved into the house in 1872, so we are looking at Empire style stuff.

I will remember to get a photo of the lamps next week.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 3:50 pm

I think the "Second Empire" style was named after Napoleon III of France, who ruled from 1850 to 1870. After the Revolution of 1848 until his defeat at Sedan. It was a 'mixture of eclectic styles' chosen to be unique, like the Great Ruler of France. Mansard roof mansions, etc were copied from Parisian style.
Those who know more can add to this.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:47 am

Here is a good description of American Empire furniture, often using the scroll and pillar of Greek design-not to be confused with Neo-Grec or Greek Revival- those Victorians sure had big fun with various revivals of just about everything!. Renaissance Revival, like the bedroom set in the guestroom at the Bordens, nearly cleaned out the American walnut forests. Quartered oak had to replace it in the decades following.

http://www.furniturestyles.net/american ... mpire.html

The photo is of the rocker in which Lincoln was assassinated- called a Greek rocker (see curved scroll arms). It was in Ford's theatre and is now in the Ford Museum in Dearborn-still stained with hair pommade which was at one time thought to be Lincoln's blood.

Jeff · Post by **Jeff** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:05 pm

Wow, That is a cool picture of Lincoln's rocker!! Ford Theater was the only thing I missed when I was in D.C. years ago. I would have loved to
have seen the location of the shooting and the actual room he died in.
I have always enjoyed studying Lincoln. Ofcourse, not quite as much as
Lizzie

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:23 pm

It's good to have more than one hobby in life- in fact, I'd say it is essential!

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 7:57 pm

I know what you've been going through, Shelley, I've been helping my fiance bring his greatgrandmother's house back to its early 1900 roots. One of the biggest improvements was getting rid of the skimpy 60s-70s trim and putting in some sizeable boards which include the mopboard or baseboard. Its tiring but very satisfying work! Can't wait to see all the new goodies that have been brought into #92!

Come to think of it, I actually had a Lizzie moment this weekend. After clearing the last of the air fern that had taken over the yard I was sitting in the yard. There is a small pear tree by the bahn (actually garage) and I took a couple of pears, from the ground, not the tree, to eat. As I sat munching away I heard the local church chime the Big Ben toll and then chime the hour which was 11:00 o'clock. It made me wonder if the old city hall clock in Fall River had some sort of special toll it played before chiming the hour? And, it made me wonder once again the day of the murders why Lizzie never mentioned hearing the city hall clock chime? Bridget heard it in the house, if Lizzie was indeed outdoors as she said, why didn't she mention hearing it at all?

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:33 pm

That's an excellent observation! Yes, she could have easily heard it outside. I slept in Bridget's room Friday night , and heard St. Mary's bells ringing for a Mass in the morning. Of course St. Mary's is closer than the City Hall was. Still, I know what you mean by Lizzie Moments. As I awake or go to bed in each of those rooms (sleeping in whichever one is empty on weekends)believe me, my brain is in overdrive, even after all these years there.

I usually take one of the Lizzie books or testimonies to bed to read, and while the guests are hoping to be frightened by ghosts, I walk through the house in my mind, lying in bed, in 1892- imagining the people looking at these same ceilings, doors,- and what they said and saw. I especially try to piece together the mounting tensions and personality clashes, events, and day to day life which led up to such a ending. The most insight I ever got into Lizzie's mind was spending 2 nights in Lizzie's original tiny room with the door shut-her room from 1872-1890. It was a small world in there-especially if there was no hope on the horizon of anything better to come.

It might be fun to look into that clock mechanism.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:44 am

I just can't help but think that it would have lent some credibility to Lizzie's story of where she was during Andrew's murder if she had mentioned the city hall clock tolling. She mentions other things, like the chip she picked up off the floor in the barn, but, nothing so concrete as that clock. I don't think that anyone asked or thought to ask her where she was or what she was doing when the clock tolled either?

I did a search and found this:

Howard Clock Installations
Record#--Model--City--State--Date Installation--Location
8/105-----#3 S--Fall River-MA-------1889---------City Hall

and this:

City Hall, Fall River, MA
An 11-bell chime by McShane was installed in this city in 1908; the location is uncertain. Three of these bells were re-installed with an hour bell (from a separate source?) in a free-standing clock tower near the City Hall in 1981, and rededicated in 1992. The other 8 bells are reported to be in storage. This site is identified in the database as
FALL RIVER - CH : USA - MA

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:44 am

I agree absolutely about remembering and mentioning expected details. Those bells are hung on a vertical stanchion-I will take a photo Friday- it is not far from 92 Second Street.

My dream- and I hope to see it realized next year, is to have "stand-ins" for every single major, mentioned character from Lizzie to Wixon and go through 8 a.m.-12 p.m. in REAL time with a superbly detailed timeline and observers with stop watches posted on each floor of the house, outside the house, barn and across the street. I would want Allen and Medley, Sawyer and Cunningham- everyone on their marks, original starting points. I think much would be revealed, confirmed and exposed.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:55 am

Now THAT would be ultra-cool - a total re-creation! Who knows what questions may be resolved or new one's arise?

Has anyone tried to see if they could hear a body fall in the guest room from the south side of the house? Also near the fence between the Kelly house, near Second St.? Bridget may have been in either place when Abby was killed.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:03 am

Yes, we do the body fall every weekend. I have learned how not to not get bruised! The result- nobody hears Abby hit the floor from either outside with the windows open, Bridget's side of the house vantage point or in the kitchen from in front of the stove. I have repeated this experiment at least 100 times over the years. Also, nobody in the kitchen can hear footsteps on the front stairs either. Also, nobody can hear a groan from inside the sitting room from the yard, side of the house, or barn

I think a realtime recreation is crucial. The condensed August 4th version is nonproductive from a detectivework point of view. C'mon up and be Dr. Bowen, Harry!. And we need VERY skilled and detail-oriented folks as observers and timeline consultants (Kat- you are a NATURAL). Len has agreed to be an observer and timeline consultant. I am convinced the material needed to clinch this case has always been there. With the crime scene still intact, and much of the trial evidence still in existence- we should go for it. Professor Starrs is onboard!

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:12 am

Shelley @ Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:03 am wrote:Yes, we do the body fall every weekend. I have learned how not to not get bruised! The result- nobody hears Abby hit the floor from either outside with the windows open, Bridget's side of the house vantage point or in the kitchen from in front of the stove. I have repeated this experiment at least 100 times over the years. Also, nobody in the kitchen can hear footsteps on the front stairs either. Also, nobody can hear a groan from inside the sitting room from the yard, side of the house, or barn
...

I've said it before and will say it again. The "groan" that Lizzie reported hearing while in the back yard came from the spring on top of the screen door. Being old enough to have seen and heard them in the 1940s, I know what that is. Maybe if anyone else had that experience they could comment.
You are free to make that noise (if you can find an old spring on door) and then see if you can hear it while in the back yard.
Second Street then (and now?) was a busy thoroughfare and the clip-clop of horses and creak of wagons could cover up sounds. IMO

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:13 am

Shelley @ Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:44 am wrote:...
My dream- and I hope to see it realized next year, is to have "stand-ins" for every single major, mentioned character from Lizzie to Wixon and go through 8 a.m.-12 p.m. in REAL time with a superbly detailed timeline and observers with stop watches posted on each floor of the house, outside the house, barn and across the street. I would want Allen and Medley, Sawyer and Cunningham- everyone on their marks, original starting points. I think much would be revealed, confirmed and exposed.

But how will you handle the unknown and secret visitor / intruder?
That is the 'missing link' in this story.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:17 am

Well, shoot, Ray- you aren't antediluvian yet- you only have 15 years on me perhaps. Most of us here know what a screen door sounds like. I recall the words "scraping sound" and "groan". Who has not heard a screen door spring thwang or the bottom of the door scrape when it is stuck? -a whole different thing than a groan.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:19 am

We will see just when and how and IF such a person might have entered, won't we?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:08 pm

Shelley @ Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:03 am wrote: C'mon up and be Dr. Bowen, Harry!.

You mean I get to bumble my way through the recreation?

Try to get Addie to come look at Andrew's body.

Send Bridget upstairs for a sheet.

Take people upstairs to look at Abby's body.

Get me a note to burn in the stove.

Get to dope Lizzie up with Morphine.

Hey, this sounds like fun! Let's see...I'll need a carriage and driver. Got to get that telegram off to Emma.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:14 pm

And don't forget the big moment- finding out, from someone after having made your own diagnosis, that Abby died of having her HEAD BASHED IN! Hey, you also get to race down to Weybosset Street! I will furnish the black bag and derby hat!