If I'd been Lizzie and I'd done it, I would've left that cellar door swinging on its hinges. Interesting, if she were the murderer, that she didn't. Perhaps didn't have time, perhaps forgot to do so, or perhaps didn't want to draw attention to the cellar.
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If the Nathan case had recently made the papers again, in all likelihood Lizzie had read about it, too.
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My point about Morse: That he begins theorizing to the police right after he's given his statement. I would've kept my mouth shut and my head low-- it makes him look to be involved, even if he wasn't.
That choloroform statement is odd. What would Andrew have been doing while Lizzie chloroformed Abby, or vice versa? Didn't he keep a big stick under the bed?
Was their bedroom door kept locked at night, as well?
Spur of the moment or well thought out?
Moderator: Adminlizzieborden
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Kat
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Maybe the morning of the murders, when Lizzie went down to the cellar, she unbolted the interior door out to the little hutch, and maybe unlocked that exterior door as well?
Then Morse would know, in advance as part of a plan, to pass around word that he saw the door was *open.* Even if it wasn't. Maybe it was supposed to be.
Maybe it even was *open*- both doors unlocked, of course, I mean- and then someone would have had to come thru and lock them- spoiling the illusion created that there had been an intruder.
Or else Morse was thinking fast on his feet and trying out a little rumor he made up...
Then Morse would know, in advance as part of a plan, to pass around word that he saw the door was *open.* Even if it wasn't. Maybe it was supposed to be.
Maybe it even was *open*- both doors unlocked, of course, I mean- and then someone would have had to come thru and lock them- spoiling the illusion created that there had been an intruder.
Or else Morse was thinking fast on his feet and trying out a little rumor he made up...
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Kat
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I think the cellar would have been the best place to hide, as there was probably tons of stuff down there stored- even files from Andrew's business now he was retired. And since people think he saved things, I can imagine a warren of rooms filled with stuff.
The only reason to have those cellar doors unlocked would be if someone had been hiding there, and needed them open to make an escape- whether that was the plan, or worked as a plan, they needn't have actually utilized it as an escape route- just as a contingency and it has the added benefit of throwing suspicion on an intruder.
The only reason to have those cellar doors unlocked would be if someone had been hiding there, and needed them open to make an escape- whether that was the plan, or worked as a plan, they needn't have actually utilized it as an escape route- just as a contingency and it has the added benefit of throwing suspicion on an intruder.
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DJ
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Leaving the cellar door unlocked and opened would have added an element of confusion to the scenario (one would assume, that in his haste to flee, an intruder would not have bothered closing the door upon his departure).
Morse attempts to establish this element of confusion, for whatever reason(s), because he's surely familiar with the "lock down" nature of the household, particularly at the front.
And, Morse seems to have a clear view into the future: Mr. Knowlton focuses heavily on which doors were locked and at what times.
Now, if Lizzie did it and she had really had her thinking cap on, not only would she have left the cellar door open, she would have also made a slash (as miniscule but as utilitarian as possible) on that screen door, as soon as Bridget was upstairs. Darned if I wouldn't have covered a brick with a cloth and, as quietly as possible-- smashed a window.
Bridget would have testified that she noticed neither before she went upstairs, but by doing both:
Lizzie (if guilty) would have opened up three much-needed hypothetical portals of entry/exit.
Then, if she had cried and fainted for show, not mouthed off, "She is not my Mother," and not burned the dress in front of Alice Russell, she might not even have been indicted.
Morse attempts to establish this element of confusion, for whatever reason(s), because he's surely familiar with the "lock down" nature of the household, particularly at the front.
And, Morse seems to have a clear view into the future: Mr. Knowlton focuses heavily on which doors were locked and at what times.
Now, if Lizzie did it and she had really had her thinking cap on, not only would she have left the cellar door open, she would have also made a slash (as miniscule but as utilitarian as possible) on that screen door, as soon as Bridget was upstairs. Darned if I wouldn't have covered a brick with a cloth and, as quietly as possible-- smashed a window.
Bridget would have testified that she noticed neither before she went upstairs, but by doing both:
Lizzie (if guilty) would have opened up three much-needed hypothetical portals of entry/exit.
Then, if she had cried and fainted for show, not mouthed off, "She is not my Mother," and not burned the dress in front of Alice Russell, she might not even have been indicted.
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Kat
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Those are good points about what she did not do.
She also did not stage a robbery. She also did not get bloody.
Both those things would have helped her, I think.
If she got bloody from killing she could have hidden that by touching her father's body and no one would have wondered at that, I don't think. Then she would not have had to burn anything. So maybe she did not have to burn anything.
...(Well, one can wonder)...
She also did not stage a robbery. She also did not get bloody.
Both those things would have helped her, I think.
If she got bloody from killing she could have hidden that by touching her father's body and no one would have wondered at that, I don't think. Then she would not have had to burn anything. So maybe she did not have to burn anything.
...(Well, one can wonder)...
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DJ
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What I'm trying to say-- Lizzie could have done so much to place herself in a better light, even if the murders were more "spur of the moment" than I consider them to be.
Even if Abby were murdered on the spur of the moment, Lizzie had some time to think about how she might cast the light of suspicion upon an intruder.
She certainly did a number on herself by not emoting or fainting when people commenced milling in, and by burning the dress, for whatever reason she did. And by the widely reported, "She is NOT my Mother," retort. How damning was that? Your stepmother has been whacked up with a hatchet, and your response is THAT? Whoooeee! How guilty did that make her look?
It's interesting to note in the police reports how at least one officer was taken aback by the way Lizzie looked and acted.
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I'd wager that her ATTORNEYS pre-advised her to faint in the courtroom.
Even if Abby were murdered on the spur of the moment, Lizzie had some time to think about how she might cast the light of suspicion upon an intruder.
She certainly did a number on herself by not emoting or fainting when people commenced milling in, and by burning the dress, for whatever reason she did. And by the widely reported, "She is NOT my Mother," retort. How damning was that? Your stepmother has been whacked up with a hatchet, and your response is THAT? Whoooeee! How guilty did that make her look?
It's interesting to note in the police reports how at least one officer was taken aback by the way Lizzie looked and acted.
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I'd wager that her ATTORNEYS pre-advised her to faint in the courtroom.
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1bigsteve
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If I were Lizzie I would have sliced my dress and placed a few cuts on my shoulders and between my fingers to show I had "caught the killer in the act" and tried to defend myself. I would also slide the bloody hatchet across the carpet to look as if I had knocked it out of the killer's hand and smeared blood on the screen door to show "he left by that route." Once all this was done I would play act like I was struggling with a killer, loud enough for Bridget to hear, and then "crawl" up the stairs frantically calling out for Bridget. By the time Bridget saw me the "killer" would be long gone.
You think this might work?
-1bigsteve (o:
You think this might work?
-1bigsteve (o:
"All of your tomorrows begin today. Move it!" -Susan Hayward 1973
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Kat
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I had posted something similar- that I would have waited to be found bloody and bruised in my room, if I couldn't leave in time. I think there was an objection that I risked infection...
Still, there are those who believe that the robbery earlier was a rehearsal for this crime- and so when I say Lizzie could have staged a robbery, and didn't- she gave up that route for some reason.
(If one believes she did commit the robbery.)
Still, there are those who believe that the robbery earlier was a rehearsal for this crime- and so when I say Lizzie could have staged a robbery, and didn't- she gave up that route for some reason.
(If one believes she did commit the robbery.)
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doug65oh
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Objections or concerns of infection are fine - today - but isn't there (or shouldn't there be) some question raised about general familiarity with the concept of infectious microbes, etc.? A physician would have known at least something about the risk, but would that knowledge (even in its most basic sense) necessarily have trickled down into the average home in 1892? It's not a show-stopper, but is I think worthy of consideration.
The other question comes to mind is this: In terms of simulating defensive wounds, which is the safer instrument - a hatchet or a kitchen knife? One slip, or one cut too deep in the wrong spot and its hello Victim #3.
The other question comes to mind is this: In terms of simulating defensive wounds, which is the safer instrument - a hatchet or a kitchen knife? One slip, or one cut too deep in the wrong spot and its hello Victim #3.
I staid the night for shelter at a farm behind the mountains, with a mother and son - two "old-believers." They did all the talking...
- Robert Frost
- Robert Frost