Andrew's arrival

[Shelley]

Another thing that makes no sense is that if an angry enemy of Andrew's wanted to get revenge for some wrong, and planned to kill Andrew-would that person not know enough about Andrew's daily habits to know he kept a pretty rigid schedule of barber, post office, banks, checking on his business holdings,collecting rents etc. Why would a killer waltz into the house about 9 or so expecting him to be home? I am not sure of when opening hours at the banks and post office were in those days- 9 a.m. is pretty much the norm now and probably then. If I wanted to do the old guy in- I'd bash him on the back of the head in an alley-and there are some good dark alleys in Fall River!

Any professional killer that Lizzie may have "hired" would have been smart enough to stalk his prey and learn the daily habits too- and surely would not have delievered 19 and 10 blows to the victims when 2 or 3 would have been sufficient. Also not too smart of an outsider to take on other possible inhabitants of the house- for all "he" knew, Bridget, Lizzie, Emma, and their galpal Alice might have been baking cookies in the kitchen that morning.

[Angel]

I would think that if it was a professional killer he certainly would not have chosen the busiest time of the day. It would have been planned out a whole lot neater. He wouldn't have taken so many risks with people coming in and out of the house, the maid just outside washing windows, not knowing if someone would scream or fight him off, and trying to get away in broad daylight. There were people in the front on the street, people in the next yard doing carpentry, and the family moving about inside of a house that was very strangely set up. That's why I feel it could only have been Lizzie who went into an unexpected frenzy aimed at Abby and then who tried to cover up another set of circumstances when her father came in earlier than she thought. She was amazingly lucky.

[Shelley]

I absolutley agree, Angel and Allen and Doug- with all of you- we are exactly on the same page. I was trying to propose some possible scenario for the idea that Abby may have been killed later. Kat is wondering why it took Lizzie so long to exit the house if she had planned to use Sargent's as an alibi- and I do believe that the dress sale was going to be Lizzie's alibi. At least that would explain why she gave the downtown dress to the police. I think she had changed into it and was coming downstairs when her father came in at the front door.

The only explanation I can think of for why she did not leave earlier, immediately after the murder of Abby is that maybe she wanted to avoid being seen by Bridget who was outside, Lizzie was waiting for her to come in the side screen door so she could slip out the front door. Then Bridget could honestly testify she did not know when Lizzie left the house and Lizzie could have said she had left early. One could also conjecture that after killing someone in such a manner- who knows how long it would take to clean up all that was incriminating, recover one's composure, and plan an escape? Lizzie had every advantage and was in the cat bird's seat of control for that first murder. Bridget was busy outside, gabbing to the Kelly girl (which Lizzie could easily see from her window upstairs, and had a t least a half-hour's work to do outside. Once Bridget was inside her options for leisurely cover-up would change- and when her father walked in- no options at all for a clean getaway.

[Angel]

I
The only explanation I can think of for why she did not leave earlier, immediately after the murder of Abby is that maybe she wanted to avoid being seen by Bridget who was outside, Lizzie was waiting for her to come in the side screen door so she could slip out the front door. Then Bridget could honestly testify she did not know when Lizzie left the house and Lizzie could have said she had left early. One could also conjecture that after killing someone in such a manner- who knows how long it would take to clean up all that was incriminating, recover one's composure, and plan an escape? Lizzie had every advantage and was in the cat bird's seat of control for that first murder. Bridget was busy outside, gabbing to the Kelly girl (which Lizzie could easily see from her window upstairs, and had a t least a half-hour's work to do outside. Once Bridget was inside her options for leisurely cover-up would change- and when her father walked in- no options at all for a clean getaway.

I couldn't agree with you more.

[doug65oh]

I may be a bit off in my computations here, but are you proposing, Shelley, that Abby's demise took place... let's see, somewhere between about 9:10 and 9:45, in that general ballpark? If so, that timeline might just be correct and also still be consistent with medical evidence (or expert opinion) presented at trial. Dr. Wood for instance, the best he could do was a window, with a variable of plus or minus thirty minutes.

What might be helpful (at least after a fashion) is to - oh I don't know, construct a "descriptive" timeline or chart, noting the estimated time an observation was made, and alongside that some note of the observations. (Well, at that time the blood was a darkish maroon color.) That's not an exact quote by the way, but it is substantially an observation made by Frank Wixon, which he recounted in his testimony at the trial. (448-449 or thereabouts that would be. Just do a search for the word "maroon" in Volume 1. The word occurs exactly one time.)

The cut-off point would be somewhere about middleafternoon or so, when the shutterbug Walsh turned up with his camera.

[Shelley]

I would offer up that timeline as a possibility. My own opinion all these years had about 9:20-9:30 as my favorite time, but it may have been either side of that.

Wixon was there I think by 11:35. The upstairs guestroom carpet was maroon, and may have initially been confusing as to contrast with the blood. CLEARLY it was to Dr. Bowen who thought Abby had fainted. When the house was renovated, the maroon carpet which is now in the diningroom downstairs was supposed to have gone upstairs in the guestroom. Looking at the crime scene, I see a darker area around the head. Black and white photography really shows off light and shadows and hue intensity.

I am looking forward to my class in textile forensics, as I think much is involved in determining the behaviour and appearance of blood- room temperature, humidity, composition, time on the surface, etc. -not to mention the surface upon which it has seeped. In this case -wool carpet, a natural fiber which would have a "wicking effect" which is to say there is a tendency to pull fluid from the surface pile downward into the jute backing.

[doug65oh]

The carpeting was maroon too? Interesting! In that little squidge there I mentioned though, Wixon is not talking about the carpet color:
----------
Q. Whereabouts was this blood which was dark and coagulated?
A. Under the face. She lay upon the floor face down.
Page 449
Q. How did its color in darkness or brightness compare with that of Mr. Borden's?
A. Oh, it was very dark. I should think---it looked to me as though it was dark maroon color.
Q. How did its thickness and clotting compare with that of Mr. Borden?
A. Well, I say, I didn't see any thick blood on Mr. Borden at all, but this, it seemed--- well, it looked as though it was thick. I didn't test it. It looked as though there was considerable on the floor and it had thickened up.

That textile forensics class sounds fascinating, as if it just might go a long way toward answering some of the more nagging questions.

[Shelley]

Our textile department at URI sometimes investigates things for the police dept. One fascinating case a few years back had a windbreaker which connected a suspect to a crime scene. When it was analyzed, it was found that the windbreaker jacket was made of a synthetic fiber and treatment that had not yet been invented at the time of the murder- thus eliminating the possibility that the man was connected to the crime scene- GOOD STUFF!

I am in the process of putting a thesis proposal together for acceptance by the faculty on Textile Evidence in the Borden Case- a favorite topic of mine for many years. I did a presentation to the Costume Society of America on this in 2005. There is a wealth of evidence, some still in existence as you know. If only the pros now had been on the scene in 1892- I think we would have solved it all in 15 minutes!

[doug65oh]

sounds like a great class. where do I sign up??

[snokkums]

I remember reading or hearing that Bridget saying that she heard Lizzie laugh at the top of the stairs.

[Shelley]

Yes, and 10 months later she says "I don't know where the girl was". I believe the testimony Bridget gave on the DAY- not 10 months later. One might also speculate that she was coached a little -then many think she was "compensated" which gave her the money to get out of town when the trial was over. Imagine if Bridget had lived the remainder of her life in Fall River- ooooh -the possibilities for chatter in the kitchen with friends.

[doug65oh]

I dunno that I'd wish that stigma on anyone though; it would have been every bit as strong as that many attached to Lizzie. Look - there goes that Sullivan girl that was servant to the Bordens. Do you suppose...?

The best thing Bridget ever did for herself I think was - how did you put it, Shelley - was done the day she packed up her kit bag and scrammed? (I gotta write that one down... it was good! )

[Yooper]

Shelley, some information for your thesis, brain matter has a bleaching effect on fabric. I don't know how long it must be in contact with the fabric to take effect, so, perhaps some research? Blood on Lizzie's dress might be removed with cold water, but brain matter is mostly lipid and protein. Lipids are hydrophobic, so they would resist water washing. Bleached areas on Lizzie's dress rather than blood spots might be the reason she burned the dress.

[Shelley]

Very interesting- and food for thought and further investigation. . . . .thanks.

[Shelley]

Here is the close up head shot of Abby on the floor. By increasing the contrast, the blood stain is much more apparent.

[Yooper]

I'm not seeing much blood on the back of Abby's dress. Given a relatively small amount of spatter on the surrounding area when compared to the amount of blood beneath her head, how much blood can we expect to find on the murderer?

[Shelley]

Most people will verify that head wounds bleed like mad- lots of blood supply and large vessels to the brain. Because of the type of lighting used by 1892 photographers, we are not getting a really good look at the back of Abby's dress, because it is light-colored, the flash is distorting the image and bouncing off the light surface..

[theebmonique]

The idea about gray matter being splattered is good. But so far I can find no refernec to it in the auopsy reports or the source documents. I used "gray matter" and "brain" in the word search. There were no hits on gray matter, and the hits on brain were mostly in refernce to wound size/depth. Where else can I look ?





Tracy...

[Yooper]

I agree, I've seen head wounds bleed prodigiously, but only while the heart is pumping. Striking a pool of blood with a narrow edged implement like a hatchet may produce surprisingly little spatter. I don't know of any experimentation along these lines, but I wonder if we're making too much of the murderer being covered in blood.

[theebmonique]

Yes, if Abby was dead before the attacker commenced upon her head...there would not be the 'splatter' from the arterial/higher pressure vessels. The blood would definitely flow out with gravity when the wounds were inflicted, but there would not be the same pressure.





Tracy...

[Shelley]

All the medical folks who have been on the tour agree without arterial spurting after the heart stops pumping, there is no geyser-like spraying, and the murderer need not have been covered head to toe like Elizabeth Montgomery. By the way, did you notice how she had to let down her hair before each killing? Made no sense to me!

[Yooper]

Tracy, I don't recall anything in the source documents referring to brain tissue except the autopsy reports mentioning that the brain matter had liquified by the time the autopsies were performed.

[Shelley]

By the way- I recall reading of a large chunk of skull clipped out of Abby's head and brain matter in those clothes in the cellar on the washroom floor. This is why I believe Morse felt compelled to bury them- they were parts of the deceased.

[Kat]

I am catching up to you guys- there was not much Internet this week here for me and 20,000 other Central Floridians!- Had to print out the last 2 pages to peruse!

If Andrew left the house at ten, how does that affect the testimony of those who saw him during his rounds?

I was hoping someone would ask that. Shelley answered later somewhat, about Andrew's regular schedule. But we have a topic about "Was Andrew Shaved?" and we only know he was possibly, from the newspaper report. No one called the barber, LeDuc, to testify on oath, nor do we have a witness statement from him. Makes it not quite certain. There is missing time in Andrew's morning if he left at 9 am. He next shows up around 9:30 downtown. (Rebello, 574 Note). That is why people think he was shaved. Just for information's sake.

Mr. Hart says he saw Andrew at The Union Savings Bank about 9:30 (Prelim, 203), and in 1892, according to the FRCity Directory, the hours of operation were 9 AM to 2 PM and on Saturdays open 6 PM til 8 PM.

The only explanation I can think of for why she did not leave earlier, immediately after the murder of Abby is that maybe she wanted to avoid being seen by Bridget who was outside, Lizzie was waiting for her to come in the side screen door so she could slip out the front door.

--Shelley

Didn't Bridget come in around 10:20 [Prelim, Bridget, 187(17)] and Andrew arrived around 10:40? Then Lizzie had time to clean up and change and leave in order to establish an alibi, IMO, if that was her plan.

From where do we know the guest room carpet was maroon, please? Thanks!

Also, Shelley proposed that Bridget might have been *coached a little* in her testimony - I submit that if this is accepted then Mrs. Churchill's statements might have been, *a little* too.

Please pardon my late replies-

[Yooper]

I doubt that Mrs. Churchill's statement to the police was coached. This took place four days after the murders, just about enough time to get over the initial shock and put two and two together. If we accept coaching as a basis for refutation of testimony, then we must accept that everyone's testimony is potentially valueless, and what is the point of this forum if we do?

[Shelley]

I learned the carpet was maroon from Rebello.

Yes, I recall reading Bridget's testimony saying she came in around 10:20-but then she changes her story about when Andrew came in- once saying 10:40, later saying 10.50, so I am thinking she, like ,everyone else is giving as close an estimate as possible. Also it was shown that watches and clocks varied 5-7 minutes. I would bet the City Hall clock was correct.

It is next to impossible to say exactly when anybody was where doing what. Try that experiment on a friend- ask them what time they finiished pumping gas in their car yesterday, or went into the market, etc. Chances are there will be a 15 minute grey area.


Also interesting to observe is how people behave on the witness stand. Some are nervous and fearful. Some are intimidated by being surrounded by "superiors". Some are not afraid at all and are gregarious and forthcoming with the tiniest detal and cannot wait to spill them. There' the reluctant witness, the confused, unreliable and easily -led witness. The defendent is always at the mercy of the personality traits of those who testify, and must hope their attorney is shrewd and perceptive enough about human nature to handle the questioning to their advantage. Robinson sure had talent!

Did't Bridget say she usually timed her morning by about how long each chore took, not by looking at the clock all the time? I always thought it took her an awfully long time outside to wash the sitting room, front parlor and diningroom windows. Lizzie testifies that Bridget did not wash the kitchen windows as "I was in the kitchen". I found that odd- why would Bridget not wash the kitchen windows too? When you stand on the ground outside, you cannot see into the first floor windows- too high- even for Bridget who was taller than most women.

I have often wondered if Bridget was loathe to admit she had been gabbing to the Kelly's girl for some time. Maybe we should do some experiments to see just just how long does it take to wash 2 sitting room windows(south side), 2 parlor windows (east side) 3 windows on the North side (1 parlor 2 diningroom). She put herself outside then, over an hour to wash the outside of 7 windows. Maybe she did do the kitchen windows after all, and Lizzie said she did not to prove she was in the kitchen. It's not as if Bridget was hopping up and down on ladders. She had a pole with a rag, then rinsed with a dipper of water thrown up on the panes.

I often wonder if Abby had insisted on Bridget's doing the windows was a way to get her out of the house because she did not want the servant to overhear an argument she was having with Lizzie. It always seemed so uncharacteristic of Abby to insist on a sick girl being put to work that way.

So many questions- we will never know the answers. Personally, I believe Abby was killed not long after Bridget went out. I was trying to find a reason for Lizzie to have said her f"ather went out at ten and was not gone long"before he returned. We know he did not go out at 10- we know it was earlier. Either she was trying to pad the time to make the murder of Abby look closer to the time Andrew was murdered, was utterly off-base about the real time- by nearly 50 minutes, or paint the picture that her father was in the house with her almost all morning, left briefly, then came back soon after a brief absence. What purpose? To show she would not have been able to murder Abby with her father around the house most of the morning.

[Angel]

I often wonder if Abby had insisted on Bridget's doing the windows was a way to get her out of the house because she did not want the servant to overhear an argument she was having with Lizzie. It always seemed so uncharacteristic of Abby to insist on a sick girl being put to work that way.


"Either she was trying to pad the time to make the murder of Abby look closer to the time Andrew was murdered, was utterly off-base about the real time- by nearly 50 minutes, or paint the picture that her father was in the house with her almost all morning, left briefly, then came back soon after a brief absence. What purpose? To show she would not have been able to murder Abby with her father around the house most of the morning."

That first paragraph makes so much sense.



Again, that second paragraph seems so right on.

[Shelley]

Ah well, we women are perceptive and intuitive things- and know our own kind! Okay Angel, so when do we publish our version and make a zillion dollars? Hundreds of hours in that house, sitting on that sofa visualizing has been constructive. One does not get up, go the toilet, get dressed and eat a cookie, then pick up a hatchet and go into a homicidal rage. Something had to precipitate it-something set the murderer off- a threat, a phrase, an argument, an announcement. Then we get into the realm of premeditation. Was it spontaneous or planned? Or maybe a little of both?

I have always said if the jury had been all -women, and also the attorneys and judges, we would have gotten to the bottom of it all! Any way you slice it- this is all about women. Poor old Andrew in a house with four of 'em did not stand a chance!

[Angel]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I truly believe that Lizzie was unstable enough to get Andrew really worried that she could do something exactly like she apparently did. (whether it was precipitated by years of some kind of abuse or whatever--that's another post) She was odd (according to many sources from that time) to begin with- a loner, quiet, sullen at times, etc. She didn't get along with her step mother. She resented her and didn't like the thought of her father's money possibly going to her and her family. She caused enough suspicion re. possible poison. Her step mother ran to the Dr stating she was afraid of "someone" poisoning the family. Emma took off in an uncharacteristic manner, leaving the situation at home, possibly to get away from it or not wanting to deal with what was planned for Lizzie by the family. The father was said to ask Emma how to get in touch with her in case something happened at home, which I think is suspicious. He made other comments to people that he didn't like what was happening at home. Morse turns up during this time, possibly to help the situation or give advice. Lizzie goes about, being distracted the week before during her stay at a resort with friends, trying to buy poison when she returns, telling her friend about her ominous thoughts the night before the murders. I think that the family had had enough of Lizzie's weirdness and was troubled enough to want to send her away for their own peace of mind and safety. I think Lizzie felt trapped and knew something was coming down that day. I think she and Abby came to verbal blows at which point Lizzie lost it (maybe she had had some half baked fantasy about wanting to do away with her step mother and then she blew and carried it through) and attacked her step mother. I think she had enough of a plan in her mind to think she could get away with it by leaving the house to establish an alibi, but then Dad came home and messed that up. The rest is history.
My father, back in the 1920's, had a sister who was schizophrenic. They always worried that she might get unstable enough to cause problems. When she was sixteen she took a baby niece and locked her and herself in a room and refused to come out. This scared the family enough to feel the need to send her away to an institution. They didn't have much medication to control things like that in those days, so they were limited in their choices. Who knows what the Borden family was dealing with? I don't know if Lizzie was schizophrenic or not, but I don't think she handled the family dysfunction well and probably acted out. When the parents were killed it resolved the tension she was living under, so she probably was able to function more normally. She might have even felt justified in what she did because she felt she was a victim.

[Shelley]

"She might have even felt justified in what she did because she felt she was a victim."

Quite true. Some of the most pious, religious people commit deeds which would make one faint with horror because they felt they were justified, it was "God's will", it was the old eye-for-an-eye rationalization. I often thought Emma's being sent off for a time to the female seminary might have been a hope that by sending her away, things at home with Lizzie might improve. I always attended female learning institutions and let me assure you- too many women under one roof can be a dicey proposition!
_________________

[Shelley]

In high school, my best gal friend had a sister who was depressed and withdrawn. She was a grade A student, pretty, but not popular. All manner of medication was tried. They were a pious Catholic family and the school we attended was run by nuns- all girl. One night her mother awoke to the girl standing over her with a butcher's knife. After that I did NOT sleep over again. Shock treatment was applied. The girl did a real personality reversal and became aggressive. She ended up finally, sadly blowing her brains out on her mother's bed. She was 17 years old. What does this all lead to- well, appearances can be deceiving. This poor girl was reserved, polite, religious and went to church every Sunday.

[Angel]

When I first started working as a psych nurse in a hospital I was working the night shift and made rounds to check each room every fifteen minutes. There had been, a few days before, a woman admitted who was a housewife- very quiet, polite, but kind of spooky. She always seemed socially correct and no one thought she was anything but just depressed. This one time in the middle of the night I checked another patient's room and when I opened the door I found this woman standing over another sleeping person's bed. She had an object in her hand and she was poised like she was about to hit this person over the head. I yelled "Mrs. W---! What are you doing?" She was startled and looked at me, quickly composed herself, and said "Oh- I was lost", which was baloney, because I know she was always oriented. We always kept a very close eye on her after that because she was so sneaky. She always appeared normal, but it was obvious that some really weird things were going on in her head that we knew nothing about. She was eventually committed. That's why I can't buy the theory that Lizzie was supposedly normal after the murders because she may have led a quiet life, but god only knows what was rolling around in her head.

[Shelley]

Profound words- God knows what any of us have "rolling around in our heads"- Everyone has a murder in them- everyone- it just takes the right button. For me would be anyone doing harm to my children. I could blow them away in cold blood and sleep like a baby. OOO, scarey thought. The female of the species are lionesses, and frequently underestimated by misguided, misinformed, unbelieving male minds- especially Victorian male minds.

[Yooper]

Quote:
"I have often wondered if Bridget was loathe to admit she had been gabbing to the Kelly's girl for some time. Maybe we should do some experiments to see just just how long does it take to wash 2 sitting room windows(south side), 2 parlor windows (east side) 3 windows on the North side (1 parlor 2 diningroom). She put herself outside then, over an hour to wash the outside of 7 windows. Maybe she did do the kitchen windows after all, and Lizzie said she did not to prove she was in the kitchen. It's not as if Bridget was hopping up and down on ladders. She had a pole with a rag, then rinsed with a dipper of water thrown up on the panes. " (Shelley)

Perhaps she fudged the time she was upstairs napping for the same reason.

[Angel]

[quote="Shelley @ Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:48 pm"] For me would be anyone doing harm to my children. I could blow them away in cold blood and sleep like a baby.

Oh, me too. In a hot minute!

[Angel]

[quote="Yooper @ Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:56 pm"]Quote:
"I have often wondered if Bridget was loathe to admit she had been gabbing to the Kelly's girl for some time.

I wonder if anyone ever talked with the Kelly's girl after the murders. It would have been interesting to know if Bridget was gossiping about any tensions or strange happenings in the Borden house.

[Shelley]

I was thinking the same thing driving to work this morning. I bet the Kelly's girl coulda given them an earful! Yes, I am sure Bridget did not want to say "Well I gabbed awhile with the girl next door over the fence, then I skipped the kitchen windows so Lizzie could prove she was in the kitchen by saying so, then I felt crummy, had yakked in the yard around 9 you see, so the minute I could, I went and flopped out on my bed to catch 40 winks."
Hey there's a whole new poem!

Bridget Sullivan took a nap
While someone killed Miss Lizzie's Pap.
When asked just when it was, she thinks,
And says "I got my 40 winks!"

[Angel]

Lizzie Borden cooked up facts
To make them think no lady hacks
Her parents up just like a nut--
It just ain't proper etiquette.




I have way too much time at work today.

[Shelley]

Me too- just watching the Xerox:

Ode to Domestic Harmony Part I

It was the day of the murder and all through the house,
Tension mounted twixt Lizzie, and Andy’s plump spouse.
Emma had nestled with Brownells in their nest
Then closed weary eyes and longed for some rest.

With heavy feet Bridget downward did trod
To do as she was told with acquiescing nod.
With bucket and pole out the doorway she clattered
Got sick in the yard, but what did it matter?

Spying a chum standing close to the fence
She sauntered over without much of a wrench.
Chatting and smiling in the warm August sun,
It sure beat the washing and was surely more fun.

Uncle Morse, strode off, so tall, odd and thin
To visit a few of the old nearby kin.
While no one would say that he was a glutton,
He thought “Oh, Dear Lord, please no more mutton!”

Andy had left to count all his money,
Lizzie was quiet, he thought that was” funny”.
He sighed as he walked to the banks just downstreet
And felt faintly ill, “It must be the heat”.

Abby trudged upward with her clumps of false hair,
Then hitched up her skirts as she mounted the stair.
Already so weary and without a friend,
She looked up to Heaven saying “How will it end?”

[doug65oh]

Then again, I suppose one might argue that :

The whole business might never have happened
Had there been things like income taxes;
If old Andrew had paid off his Uncle Sam,
He’d have had nothing for hatchets or axes!

[Shelley]

Okay Stef- I think we are ready for a new feature for the Hatchet- Bloody Versicles? !!

[Allen]

I have often wondered if Bridget was loathe to admit she had been gabbing to the Kelly's girl for some time. Maybe we should do some experiments to see just just how long does it take to wash 2 sitting room windows(south side), 2 parlor windows (east side) 3 windows on the North side (1 parlor 2 diningroom). She put herself outside then, over an hour to wash the outside of 7 windows. Maybe she did do the kitchen windows after all, and Lizzie said she did not to prove she was in the kitchen. It's not as if Bridget was hopping up and down on ladders. She had a pole with a rag, then rinsed with a dipper of water thrown up on the panes.

I think it could've taken every bit as long as Bridget said it did to wash those windows. Those windows were first of all well above her head. Using a pole with a rag on the end of it to reach above ones head in order to scrub something seems a bit unwieldy and tedious to me. How much of the window can she cover at one time with any degree of accuracy? Then there are the trips back and forth to the barn to get the water she was using. The rinsing consisted of 'dashing' water up with a dipper. How much water can one hold? How many 'dashes' does it take to do one window? I'd think that would have taken several trips the barn. The bucket only stays full for so long when she is throwing the water up and out of it for each window. She may not have been as worried about washing the kitchen windows because who was going to see them? They are in the back of the house hidden to all except those who are back there. While the other three sides of the house are visible to all passers by.

[Shelley]

How long did Bridget say it took her to wash the windows? If she went out at 9:15 and came in at 10:20- correct me if I have this wrong. Of course we have no idea how long she stood there talking.

[RayS]

How long did Bridget say it took her to wash the windows? If she went out at 9:15 and came in at 10:20- correct me if I have this wrong. Of course we have no idea how long she stood there talking.

These questions are probably located in the Trial Testimony.
You can be sure the police questioned Kelly's maid, and everyone else there. Remember, Bridget had to walk back and forth to the barn to draw water, etc. If she left at 9:15 (nobody was keeping time then) and returned from outside at 10:20 (to begin on the DR windows), that sounds like enough time on one of the hottest days of the year.

Or has some revisionist claimed that it wasn't a hot day even tho all those present at the time said it was?

[RayS]

Lizzie Borden made some pancakes,
And gave her Mother 40 snacks,
When she gobbled them down,
She gave her Father forty-one.

My poetic license was renewed!!

[Shelley]

Actually Rebello checked with several weather recording sources, including local newspapers. The temps were only in the high 70's at the time of Andrew's murder. Remember, he had a reefer on, the windows and shutters were closed in the sitting room as well as the kitchen door to the sitting room, the front hall door and the parlor door so it could not be the stifling 90's many authors claim.. Each one seems to add another 10 degrees for effect..

In the city in August - it is the humidity which will do you in, and usually the first and second week. This year we got slammed with the humidity and high temps the last week of July. August 4th was cool and dry for once. In the evening though, along about 6 p.m. there is a great breeze which suddenly comes up off the Taunton river and billows in through the north side of the house. With the sitting room windows open too, there is a great cross-ventilation.

Okay guys! I think we are ready to publish a slim and expensive volume of verse!

This weekend, we will make a little experiment on window washing, walking back and forth to the barn, etc. and time it. I bet Bridget cut through the back by the grape arbor to go thr barn.

[Kat]

Sorry to be late again. These Florida storms are murder!
Just a bit of tidying up, which not to rub anyone the wrong way- is what I do..
Angel you said that Abby ran to the Doctor stating she was "afraid of 'someone' poisoing the family"- and we had just discussed this where it was shown that she did not claim "someone" was doing that. It's around here somewhere close by tho- should be easy to find. You also state that Emma went off "in an uncharacteristic manner" out of town, but we don't know that. We don't know much about Emma's habits, I think we can agree.. Also, Andrew supposedly made a statement to a man about trouble at home, but we don't have something akin to "Comments to people" which implies more than what we know, but even that one comment is a good point to make.
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As for timing- I can't find where Bridget changes her story as to when Andrew came home. I did a search but couldn't find it, sorry. I think it was said she changed all the way to 10:50. I find her saying:
Prelim
Bridget
19
Q. It was Mr. Borden was it?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Have you any idea what time that was?
A. It might be later than half past ten; I could not tell.

In my timeline on the website I have approx. 10:30 - 10:40, based on all the other things going on:

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... ridget.htm
Granted, that is from the Prelim, but it is closer in time to the event, but also doing a search of the trial I could not find a 10:50 from Bridget. If someone finds it please let me know?

I would consider Shelley an expert on those windows! And washing them is a great idea.

Bridget says she used a pole and brush outside, and a cloth inside. She said she got 6 or 7 pails of water, just for those who were asking.

Bridget got the order to wash the windows around 9 am abd started to start them between 9:30 and 9:40. She says before she began she talked to Mary at the fence. She says she had her pail and brush at that point but does not say she has the long handle- so it's possible she spoke to Mary before going to the barn where the handle was kept. That might get her started actually washing windows around 9:40. Mrs. Churchill says she saw Bridget in the rinse cycle throwing a dipper of water on the parlour window around 10 am.
That would mean, loosly, that Bridget started at the sitting room windows approx. 9:40 and made her round washing with the brush, and was at her dipper work on the parlour window by 10. So she would have washed the sitting room, parlour and dining room windows outside, and rinsed the sitting room windows and was at the parlour to rinse in 20 minutes. Maybe she really did start at 9:30 and took 30 minutes. Does 20 minutes for all that sound like enough time?

As for schizophrenia, Angel, you are a good resource for that- does that usually manifest as a teenager? And if so, could Lizzie have been able physically, or mentally, at age 30 to take a trip to Europe without, say, someone like Emma to reassure her or keep her *stable* or watch out for any *episodes*? I ask specifically, because maybe you can tell me if that is a sporadic disease, comes and goes? Also, does that malady come sometimes with a touch of paranoia, or is that too general a question to ask?

I absolutely lovelovelove the poetry and lovelovelove the contributions made lately of a serious nature and I thank you all for entertaining and interesting discussions!

[Airmid]

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As for timing- I can't find where Bridget changes her story as to when Andrew came home. I did a search but couldn't find it, sorry. I think it was said she changed all the way to 10:50.

Porter has this (p. 29):
Bridget Sullivan was positive that she admitted him at the front door between 10:45 and 10:50; it was before 11 and after 10:45.
I wonder where that came from!

I love the poetry too! Great stuff! However, I think there's not enough pears in them .

Airmid.

[Angel]

Kat, I don't think Lizzie was necessarily a schizophrenic- I was just giving my relative as an example of someone who was unstable enough for others to be concerned about her possible behavior. I think Lizzie probably had a more volatle personality than most and it could have been exacerbated by family dysfunction. Lizzie showed throughout her life that when there was nobody pushing her buttons she was able to function normally enough to live a quiet life.

[Kat]

That's a good point, because as far as we know, she didn't kill again (if she did kill the Bordens). But how does one arrange their life so their buttons don't get pushed? Do you think that once one cause of extreme anxiety is removed, people with impulse control issues might tend to replace that with another?

Thank you Airmid for the Porter reference!

Now is maroon carpet in the guestroom in Rebello's book, or in Rebello?
I will check the book, Shell, if you will check the man?