Andrew's arrival

[doug65oh]

Ayup, that's from the trial transcript that we always use, courtesy Harry the god of Transcripts. Volume 1. The last full sentence Bridget spoke - very bottom of pg. 248 - was: "Mrs. Churchill said she would go with me."

[Kat]

Thanks! I might have confused people because I was using the Preliminary Hearing transcript- and not everyone has that.

I wonder how much more determined (or assured) Bridget was in her trial appearance vs. her prelim appearance?

It still doesn't quite match the testimony I have from the Trial.
Here is a copy/paste.
I think what got my attention was the "Miss Lizzie."

Q. What happened then?
A. "Oh," I says, "Lizzie if I knew where Mrs. Whitehead was I would go and see if Mrs. Borden was there and tell her that Mr. Borden was very sick." She says, "Maggie, I am almost positive I heard her coming in. Won't you go up stairs to see." I said, "I am not going up stairs alone."

Compared to:

doug65oh @ Sat Sep 02, 2006 3:07 pm wrote:
If I'm reading this correctly, that's at about 247-248 of the transcript - Bridget specifically mentions that: I said, "Miss Lizzie, if I knew where Mrs. Whitehead's was I would go and see if Mrs. Borden is there.” She said, "Maggie, I am almost positive I heard her coming in," she said, "I am sure she is up stairs." I said, "I am not going up again."

--You are paraphrasing I take it?

[doug65oh]

It's hard to say whether her determination wavered in roughly six months. As I read the transcripts though - comparing her preliminary hearing testimony to the later trial - it doesn't appear that there's a great deal of difference between what Bridget said on that point.

[doug65oh]

Hmm...?? Paraphrasing? Actually no, I wasn't, although I might be a bit off by a page on the citation. Let me check that right quick -

Ummm no, it's actually a direct quote, from the trial transcript Volume 1.

The Q/A sequence follows here, and is as I said a direct quote:

Q. Won't you state that again? I did not quite hear it. You said, "I says Lizzie, if I knew---" Now upon your return, what was said?
A. I said, "Miss Lizzie, if I knew where Mrs. Whitehead's was I would go and see if Mrs. Borden is there.” She said, "Maggie, I am almost positive I heard her coming in," she said, "I am sure she is up stairs." I said, "I am not going up again."

Six lines below that is "Page 249" of the trial transcript. So the above quote would be pg. 248. (This is Harry's transcription I have opened in front of me.)

Make better sense now?

[Kat]

Oh Jeez. We have Bridget saying this 3 different ways?
One way in the prelim and 2 ways in the trial?
Wonder what the heck she said in the inquest!

Thanks a lot for re-checking that. I did not understand!

[Harry]

Here's that portion of her testimony from the actual page. As Doug says it's page 248. If you have the CD, it's image 269.



When I look back on how bad some of these images were it's a wonder I still can see.

[Yooper]

The testimony from Mrs. Churchill and Bridget about Lizzie insisting she heard Abby return seems to be the most incriminating of all. Lizzie told Andrew that Abby had gone out, Andrew napped in the sitting room. Bridget went upstairs for a nap, Lizzie went to the barn. Lizzie had to have heard Abby come in through the front door if Lizzie entered through the rear door. Abby had no front door key as of Tuesday that week, she explained this to Mrs. Bowen as "they" had taken her key. Lizzie had to have heard Abby enter through the front door on her (Lizzie's) way to the sitting room where she discovered Andrew because if Abby had used the rear door, Lizzie would have seen her. If Lizzie heard Abby return after she discovered Andrew, the hollering up the stairs and a corpse in the sitting room might have been a clue to Abby that something was amiss. This also presumes that Abby entered a door to which she probably didn't have a key, and proceeded directly upstairs. Lizzie discovered Andrew and, rather than calling for Abby whom she had just heard come in the front door, she called for Bridget.

Another possibility is that Lizzie heard the murderer leaving through the front door while she walked to the sitting room. If that was true, why would she say it was Abby returning? Lizzie would have probably seen Abby enter the front door, seen her in the front hall, or at least heard her on the stairs during a walk through the dining room on the way to the sitting room. When Abby did not appear as the result of hollering and scurrying about, why did Lizzie remain in the house?

[doug65oh]

Harry... you deserve a medal - and free eye exams as needed!

[Allen]

Since the key was on the mantel- "upstairs" to me meant the guestroom- not Abby's own bedroom in back.

Trial testimony of Bridget Sullivan page 236:

Q. What is the next thing that happened?
A. The next thing I remember, Mr. Borden went into the kitchen and come in the kitchen door, come from the kitchen into the sitting room and took a key off the mantal piece and went upstairs to his room.

Q. What key was it that he took?
A. The key of his bedroom door.

Q.And what stairs did he go up?
A.The back stairs.

[Kat]

If Lizzie thought Abby had returned because she was really hearing the killer leave, then she would think Abby would have gone straight up to the guest room and by Lizzie's reckoning, been immediately murdered.
That's why I don't think Lizzie knew that officials could tell how long Abby had been dead.
I'm not sure what that tells us.

But also, because Abby's front door key was gone from her on Tuesday doesn't mean she had not been given it back by Thursday, right?

[Yooper]

There is a possibility that Abby had recovered her key by Thursday, and we don't know how long she was without it. All we know is what Abby told Mrs. Bowen on Tuesday, that "they" had taken it. If we eliminate Andrew as one of the merry pranksters, we have Bridget, Emma, and Lizzie in some combination of two or more. I think Bridget can be eliminated also because being part of a conspiracy involving the strained relationships between Emma and Lizzie and Abby might have jeopardized her job. She had been with the Bordens two years and nine months. Either she enjoyed working there or other positions were scarce if she didn't enjoy it. Either way, I don't think she would jeopardize her only source of income and I don't believe any friendship with Lizzie and/or Emma would induce her to do so. This leaves Emma and Lizzie as "they", and it makes Lizzie aware that Abby would probably not be able to use the front door. Even if Bridget was a part of the conspiracy there is a one in four chance that Lizzie was unaware of Abby being without a key. The combinations are Lizzie/Emma, Lizzie/Bridget, Lizzie/Emma/Bridget, and Emma/Bridget.

If Abby was without a key on Tuesday, she would have had to obtain another one by Thursday to enter the front door. She would not be aware of a spare key anywhere if she complained of being without one. She would have had to have another key made from an existing key, which would probably make Andrew aware of her dilemma, unless she used Lizzie's key as a master. Someone would have to go out and have the work done. Abby wasn't feeling well on Wednesday, which leaves Andrew or Lizzie. Abby might have done it herself after talking to Mrs. Bowen on Tuesday, but she would have had to borrow either Lizzie's or Andrew's key to do so.

I seriously doubt that Abby had a front door key on Thursday, someone probably would have come forth with testimony as to having made a key for the Bordens on Tuesday or Wednesday.

[Yooper]

Has anyone wondered why everyone else in the Borden household who had gone out of the house on Thursday was seen by someone on the street, except for Abby? Was she invisible? Or did she simply not leave the house?

[Allen]

That's an excellent point Yooper.

[Susan]

Yooper's post just made me think of something a bit odd. Abby allegedly got a note to visit with someone who was sick, which she never made it to or never really received a note. Abby herself was sick just a few days ago and she never received a sick call from anyone. Yes, I guess the idea would be to send out a note, but, the way word seemed to spread in Fall River, you think someone would think to check in on her, maybe even the Whiteheads? Kind of odd, don't you think?

[Shelley]

I figured since Andrew had put the key back on the mantel when he came down- if Mrs. Borden had to go upstairs "in back" she would have used that key to get into her back bedroom. So "I wish you would go look upstairs" always sounded to me like the guestroom.

Bridget had just come from the back with sheets and probably was not fearful beacause the Borden bedrom was always locked and she had recently been on the third floor in her room with both storerooms locked so it was not likely any murderer was "up back". When Bridget left the house to fetch Bowen, Lizzie was parked at the back screen door -so I can see Bridget rationalizing that the back of the house was probably safe.
But nobody had looked up front at the time the suggestion Mrs. Borden should be found- so I understand why Bridget did not want to go alone up there.


And isn't it interesting that Bridget, after nearly three years with the Bordens, did not know where Alice Russell and Sarah Whitehead lived?

[Yooper]

Was the purpose of a sick note to ask for help in running the household of the sick person? If it was, then the Borden household was over-staffed the way it was with four adult women. Abby may not have needed help with the household. If it was a matter of courtesy, then it was strange that Abby had no callers.

Something caused Abby to suspect that she was being poisoned. I'm sure she was aware of summer sickness, she had probably dealt with that in the past. Something made her run to Dr. Bowen Wednesday morning with the belief that she was ill as the result of poisoning. This was done against Andrew's wishes. Why would she imply malice? "They" had taken her key, perhaps "they" were trying to poison her, too. Each time she confided in the Bowens. I have to wonder what else "they" were up to...

[Shelley]

Another thought about that note- what an odd way of phrasing that information and so unlike everyday conversation "She said she had a note and someone was sick"- I can't imagine anyone delivering such a message. I would think Abby would say something like-" Old Mrs. Durfee has the gout", or "Mrs. Chace has sprained her foot and I am going down to see if there is something I can do"- or a million more normal ways of conveying the fact that someone I know is sick. I also thought it odd that she did not mention it to Bridget- "I'll be back by 11:30 as I am going to vist Mrs. X -do we need anything at the store" or something homey and domestic like that. The conversation Lizzie describes concerning that note sounds stilted and unlike the impression I have of Abby. Strange. Also strange that if Abby was too ill the day before to watch little Abbie Thursday morning, she would be raring to go on a sick call herself. although she was better.

Of course I never bought the note bit!

[Yooper]

Lizzie probably told Andrew the story about the note to prevent his looking for Abby. Bridget overheard the conversation, and Lizzie was stuck with the story. I expect that Bridget thought it odd that she had not been told of Abby's note, nor had she seen or heard Abby leave the house. Lizzie said that she had been in the kitchen when Andrew arrived, and Bridget knew better. I think these inconsistencies may be what made Bridget want to leave the Borden household as soon as possible. Adelaide Churchill was aware of an inconsistency in Lizzie's story when she was questioned by police (witness statements, Doherty, p.11) and she agonizes about "having to tell all". Something in her statement was incriminating to her way of thinking. I believe it was the part about Lizzie having heard Abby return.

[Smudgeman]

Lizzie probably told Andrew the story about the note to prevent his looking for Abby. Bridget overheard the conversation, and Lizzie was stuck with the story. I expect that Bridget thought it odd that she had not been told of Abby's note, nor had she seen or heard Abby leave the house. Lizzie said that she had been in the kitchen when Andrew arrived, and Bridget knew better. I think these inconsistencies may be what made Bridget want to leave the Borden household as soon as possible. Adelaide Churchill was aware of an inconsistency in Lizzie's story when she was questioned by police (witness statements, Doherty, p.11) and she agonizes about "having to tell all". Something in her statement was incriminating to her way of thinking. I believe it was the part about Lizzie having heard Abby return.

I agree with you Yooper that Lizzie was stuck with the note story. I wonder why "they" took Abby's keys on Tuesday? I can't remember now, but wasn't Emma already gone on Tuesday? It seems "they" did not want Abby to be able to use the front door, but for how long? If she was planning to go out Thursday, do you think she had her key back by then? And I am sure she would have told her Husband that "they" had taken her key. Maybe Andrew was planning on changing the front locks because of this incident?

[Yooper]

I don't think Abby told Mrs. Bowen when "they" took the key, she didn't specify that particular day. Abby had the conversation with Mrs. Bowen the Tuesday preceding the murders, the same week. The probability of Abby having a key for the front door by Thursday without testimony from a locksmith about having made a key for the Bordens is very low.

I'm thinking that "they" were driving Abby nuts in subtle ways, such as a robbery, a missing key, and who knows what else. Abby's conversation with Dr. Bowen on Wednesday indicated that bread from a bakery might be at fault for the "poisoning" Abby suspected, but why would she go against Andrew's wishes in seeing Dr. Bowen about it? Who suggested the bread as the source of the poison, Dr. Bowen or Abby? Somewhere along the line someone suggested that the milk might be poisoned. This all sounds like more than a random incident of food poisoning, malice is clearly implied.

[Shelley]

The Gaslight Treatment- I love it!
Maybe Emma and Lizzie were planning on the Taunton Asylum for poor old Abby

[Kat]

A key would not necessarily have to be made- only returned. I don't see why Abby's own key could not have been restored to her. That is more simple than wondering why a locksmith did not come forward saying he had to make her a new key, or Andrew then had to change locks. I'm just attempting to simplfy.

Also, if Lizzie knew Abby could not enter the front door and she herself was in the back hallway near the screen door, then she probably did not say she thought she heard Abby come in- just as she says she didn't say that. I mean that makes more sense.

The combinations mentioned, of those in the household itself who might have been in a conspiracy probably would not include Emma, as Emma had been gone 2 weeks. But- after Abby was killed, a combination of folks in a household conspiracy could be Lizzie/Bridget. I don't quite see it before Abby was killed, but after she was killed, it seems possible- or not impossible, I should say.

It's a good point that everyone was seen outside that day except for Abby. But also Morse was not seen arriving at the house on Wednesday that we know of nor seen leaving the house Thursday morning, nor of being in the yard, Thursday right after his return. (Just an aside).

Comment was made that no one came to see Abby when she was ill- but actually Dr. Bowen of course did come over, he says, to see Andrew because he had alreay seen Abby. And it's been my impression that Mrs. Dr. Bowen came over to see Abby Wednesday probably because she had known from her husband that the Bordens had been sick. That's my opinion.

The front of the house was not *clear* as the inmates probably took into account when a search party of Bridget and Mrs. Churchill went looking for Abby, yes - but neither was the cellar.

"Andrew's wishes"-- about Abby going against them when she went to Dr. Bowen's, is according to Lizzie and what Lizzie told Alice Wednesday night. That may not be something to rely upon. That was Lizzie to Alice and Alice to the authorities. We get that second hand and from someone who is a suspect.

The same caution could be brought about what 'Lil Abby claimed in her dotage- that Abby was to watch her while her mother went to Rocky Point. That has not been proven or verified other than her own story. Do we know that Abby *babysat* her half sister's kids? I've never heard of that.

The quote: "She said she had a note and someone was sick"- do we have that source? To whom is this referring as having said this? Thanks!

Dr. Bowen was not under the impression that Abby thought someone was poisoning her. His impression was that she thought it was something she ate. Abby did eat pork steak for breakfast Wednesday morning before going over to the doctors. If she thought she was being poisoned, wouldn't she go there first before eating anything? And would she feed Morse that mutton meal Wednesday dinner even when he said he wasn't hungry?


Inquest
Dr. Bowen
Q. You had not been called that week to the family?
A. No Sir, I had not been called. I went over to see them. The day before, Wednesday morning, about eight o'clock, or before eight, Mrs. Borden came to the door and said she was frightened, said that she was afraid she was poisened. I told her to come in. She sat down, and she said the night before about nine o'clock she and her husband commenced to vomit, and vomitted for two or three hours until twelve, I understood.
Q. What morning was this?
A. Wednesday morning. I asked her what she had eaten for supper, and she told me. She said she had eaten some baker's white bread, and she had heard of baker's cream cakes being poisonous, and was afraid there was something poisonous in the bread that made her vomit. She said

116 (23)
she only ate cake and baker's white bread. At that time she had a sort of an eructation of vomiting, slightly. I was afraid she was going to vomit there, I rather got ready for her. I told her to go home, and told her what to take; and she took it.

[Yooper]

It is possible that Abby's front door key was returned to her, but why was it taken in the first place? Then, why would it be returned? While the process of returning the key is simpler, the motivation is more complex.

[Yooper]

If Lizzie was aware that Abby could not enter the front door, and she was occupying the rear hallway, and if Lizzie was innocent, then she would have denied saying she heard Abby arrive, and Bridget and Mrs. Churchill are lying when they contend that Lizzie said she thought she heard Abby arrive. These were two separate incidents, Mrs. Churchill was told that when she first arrived and Bridget was told the same thing when she offered to look for Abby. Bridget was not present when Mrs. Churchill was first told of it.

On the other hand, if Lizzie was guilty, then Lizzie was lying and Bridget and Mrs. Churchill were telling the truth. They can't all be telling the truth.

[Yooper]

We can exclude Emma from the possibilities for "they" only if we know that the key was taken during her absence. After Abby was killed, the possibility for a Lizzie/Bridget combination is limited by Bridget's continued presence in the Borden household. What bearing does that have on Abby's key, I don't quite understand?

[Shelley]

I agree. Well, it was one way to have the first victim discovered wasn't it?- while giving a very innocent appearance. To say you heard someone enter a while ago insinuates that person was alive

So much better to have someone else go discover the body, then look surprised and horrified.

[Yooper]

Abby's original complaint to Dr. Bowen was that she was poisoned, an unqualified statement. Only after Dr. Bowen's suggestions about what she had eaten does it begin to be qualified as food poisoning, Bowen is leading her. Abby's original complaint does not suggest this. Dr. Bowen was sufficiently motivated by Abby's visit to go to the Borden house to check on the others. If he really believed that it was simply summer sickness or food poisoning, would he do that?

Was Abby in the habit of running to Dr. Bowen when summer sickness occurred? If not, then why on this occasion?

[Yooper]

I agree. Well, it was one way to have the first victim discovered wasn't it?- while giving a very innocent appearance. To say you heard someone enter a while ago insinuates that person was alive

So much better to have someone else go discover the body, then look surprised and horrified.

This sounds right to me, I think Lizzie was faced with a situation of "damage control". I don't think Andrew's murder was planned, I think it was done out of opportunity or necessity. I think Lizzie planned to kill Abby during Andrew's absence and be away from the house for a time to establish an alibi. Andrew returned before she had the opportunity to leave, and she was winging it from that point. It seems she was brought up short when she was questioned about Abby's whereabouts, she hadn't thought of that.

[Airmid]

Abby's original complaint to Dr. Bowen was that she was poisoned, an unqualified statement. Only after Dr. Bowen's suggestions about what she had eaten does it begin to be qualified as food poisoning, Bowen is leading her. Abby's original complaint does not suggest this. Dr. Bowen was sufficiently motivated by Abby's visit to go to the Borden house to check on the others. If he really believed that it was simply summer sickness or food poisoning, would he do that?

Was Abby in the habit of running to Dr. Bowen when summer sickness occurred? If not, then why on this occasion?

I don't think there's anything that indicates that Abby thinks she was deliberately poisoned by someone. Quoting Kat's quotes: "She said she had eaten some baker's white bread, and she had heard of baker's cream cakes being poisonous, and was afraid there was something poisonous in the bread that made her vomit." I hear you when you say, Yooper, that Dr. Bowen was leading her, but this still gives me the impression that Abby thought it might have been an accidental poisoning, and not a deliberate act by someone.

I do think that Dr. Bowen had a good reason to go and check up on the others. In another thread on this forum (viewtopic.php?t=982&sid=6320a3ca1626b5c ... 8e00901f31) Harry dug up information about a cholera epidemic in 1892. Summer sickness (also called "Cholera morbus") had symptoms that were not unlike those of the more deadly Cholera varieties. I think Dr. Bowen acted very sensible (for the first time? ) to go and check on Andrew.

Airmid.

[Yooper]

The Bowen quote reads:

"The day before, Wednesday morning, about eight o'clock, or before eight, Mrs. Borden came to the door and said she was frightened, said that she was afraid she was poisened."

Does the term "frightened" imply a random occurrence of food poisoning?

[Shelley]

Yooper- you are a man after my own mind. I have always thought exactly the same thing lo these many years. I believe Abby was the intended victim-Lizzie's alibi was going to be that dress sale at Sargent's and when Andrew came home, she was coming downstairs from where she had changed into her downtown bengaline to trot off to the sale and shopping when she was interrupted in her escape. Andrew's killing was pure self-preservation. He would have known in a heartbeat when he went upstairs to hunt for Abby at the sewing machine who dunnit! I also think she well may have slipped on his frock coat and in a clever move, left it by his head to explain any blood on it. I also tried out a hatchet in a slop pail- perfect fit. And what man on earth would have put his hand in a slop pail full of feminine napkins? The dress she wore in the morning to do the deed I believe she put between her mattresses that day , then lay demurely on her bed in her wrapper undisturbed until she could hide the dress later-then burned it at the first opportunity. I tend to take a common sense , if pragmatic view on murder- and keep it simple.

Her step back from the stove spoke volumes to me when she was burning that dress. Why not cut it up for rags or burn it in a barrel behind the barn? There was also a rag and bone man who gave money for old rags, a missionary barrel for cast-off clothing, quilt squares, and a million other things come to mind. If you have ever burned cloth in a woodstove- it smells. I tried one yard and we had to leave the room. She had about 7 yards to burn.
As soon as Bridget is safely out of the house washing windows- Abby is killed. As soon as Bridget is safely upstairs on her bed, Andrew gets killed. No time is wasted. Not a coincidence I think.

If she had been trying to poison Abby that week, and her victim rushes across to the doctor agitated and mentioning poisoning to the doctor, what a good thing to plant the seed of poisoning of the whole family in the mind of a friend, then at the first chance, to silence the victim who is now a real threat.

I believe things were far worse in that house among those 3 women than even those witnesses who testified to hatred there knew. Interesting that Abby was having company on Monday- when Lizzie and Emma were going to be out. Abby was not even mistress of her own home. Too many women in the kitchen- as my grandfather used to say.

[Yooper]

Shelly, also consider the motivation to burn the dress in the first place. If the dress was free of blood, it could only verify Lizzie's innocence. It makes more sense to keep the dress under lock and key under those circumstances. I can't imagine the need for closet space making the need to burn the dress imperative, especially at that time.

[snokkums]

Shelly, also consider the motivation to burn the dress in the first place. If the dress was free of blood, it could only verify Lizzie's innocence. It makes more sense to keep the dress under lock and key under those circumstances. I can't imagine the need for closet space making the need to burn the dress imperative, especially at that time.

I dont think that Lizzie was thinking like that. I think that she thought she was innocent. I think she felt that she didnt do it. And didnt she say that there was red paint on the dress and that's why she burnt it? So I am thinking that she thought that there wasn't a reason to keep the dress because she felt she was innocent.

[Yooper]

Shelly, also consider the motivation to burn the dress in the first place. If the dress was free of blood, it could only verify Lizzie's innocence. It makes more sense to keep the dress under lock and key under those circumstances. I can't imagine the need for closet space making the need to burn the dress imperative, especially at that time.

I dont think that Lizzie was thinking like that. I think that she thought she was innocent. I think she felt that she didnt do it. And didnt she say that there was red paint on the dress and that's why she burnt it? So I am thinking that she thought that there wasn't a reason to keep the dress because she felt she was innocent.

Why could Lizzie not wait to burn the dress? Why must that be done right then, during a murder investigation? The dress had paint on it for some time before she burned it, why could it not wait a while longer? I can understand that if she was innocent she might have the naive belief that there was no harm done, but it also indicates that she was not taking the murder investigation of her parents very seriously. How much of an airhead was she?

[doug65oh]

Apparently just enough an airhead to burn the dress in front of Alice Russell:

Q. What talk passed between you in the dining room?
A. I said to them---I said, "I am afraid, Lizzie, the worst thing you could have done was to burn that dress. I have been asked about your dresses."
Q. What did she reply?
A. She said, "Oh, what made you let me do it? Why didn't you tell me?"

(Trial, 1, pg.393)

[Shelley]

I thought the dress had drab paint on it- sort of brownish. And why did the police never see that dress after that search on the day of the funeral?
Also, why was she seen from time to time in it around the house before if it was so ruined?

That dress closet is quite large- I wish I had one half the size. Hooks were pennies a piece if Emma needed a hook. With Emma back in the sinkroom, maybe she did not count on Alice coming in at the moment she was stuffing it in the stove. Think about it- in all your life- have you ever burnt up an old garment? I have a woodstove and a fireplace and the thought would never occur. Nobody burned up all the old clothes on Abby and Andrew- they buried them, more than once too-and they were surely ruined!

[DWilly]

Shelly, also consider the motivation to burn the dress in the first place. If the dress was free of blood, it could only verify Lizzie's innocence. It makes more sense to keep the dress under lock and key under those circumstances. I can't imagine the need for closet space making the need to burn the dress imperative, especially at that time.

I dont think that Lizzie was thinking like that. I think that she thought she was innocent. I think she felt that she didnt do it. And didnt she say that there was red paint on the dress and that's why she burnt it? So I am thinking that she thought that there wasn't a reason to keep the dress because she felt she was innocent.

Why could Lizzie not wait to burn the dress? Why must that be done right then, during a murder investigation? The dress had paint on it for some time before she burned it, why could it not wait a while longer? I can understand that if she was innocent she might have the naive belief that there was no harm done, but it also indicates that she was not taking the murder investigation of her parents very seriously. How much of an airhead was she?

I don't think she was an airhead. I think Lizzie simply thought, at first, there was no way they were going to think that she, Lizzie Andrew Borden, killed her own Father. She thought she was above it all.

I am pretty sure I have read some where on these boards that usually old clothes were cut up and used for rags and what not.

I wonder what Lizzie would have done had Alice just walked up to her and said, "Please, let me take a look at that dress just for a moment before you burn it. The police have been asking about your dresses."?

[Shelley]

Yes, there was a rag and bone man until well into the 20th century. And all churches-even today are desperate for donated cast-offs. If only the skirt were stained, why burn the blouse?

Yes, if only Alice had had some NERVE at the moment. Wow- -maybe she would have not awakened the next day too. I think Bridget had the right idea- pack up your ditty bag and scram.

[Yooper]

Alice Russell had represented the dress burning incident as a turning point for her opinion regarding Lizzie's innocence. What is interesting about Alice's reaction was that it was along the lines of "I wouldn't get caught doing that" rather than "I wouldn't do that", which implies both Alice's knowledge of wrongdoing and perhaps an awareness of guilt at that moment. Lizzie's reaction to the realization that it was wrong to burn the dress, whether real or staged, was to shift the blame with "how could you let me do that?", as though others were responsible for her actions.

[Kat]

Lizzie's alibi was going to be that dress sale at Sargent's and when Andrew came home, she was coming downstairs from where she had changed into her downtown bengaline to trot off to the sale and shopping when she was interrupted in her escape.

--Shelley

Why did it take Lizzie so long to get out of the house? She had plenty of time to go before Andrew was due back. Also, why do you think Lizzie was intent herself on going to Sargents? Would she herself go where she told her servant to shop? Her store was Deanes.

~~~

As for the *poisoned food*, Abby served food they had been eating to Morse when he arrved on Wednesday. I brought this up earlier. If Abby thought their food had been poisoned, and Morse declines the food, saying he's not hungry and yet she feeds him anyway then that tells me she was not scared (read "frightened) of the food she served him.
Granted, they were supposedly sick the night of having the swordfish, but the Legend gives the impression it was the menu of mutton.
And then mutton concoction was again served at breakfast Thursday.

It makes sense that Abby might have, in her mind, isolated what she thought was *bad* - the bread- and then not served that again. For that family to keep eating in that house after Tuesday night is enough proof for me that Abby was not thinking of a poisoner in their family.

Unless she disliked Morse so much she hoped he was poisoned too?
Maybe Abby was poisoning the family once Emma left?

[Shelley]

Some good questions indeed. Well, first, I don't think we know exactly the moment Abby was killed-just a range. It may have been closer to 10 than 9:30. I am also trying to recall when Bridget said she came inside- was it about 10:15 ? We know the side door was open and Bridget came right in, but I cannot imagine that she did not see Lizzie when she came in, which makes me think that Lizzie was upstairs as Bridget first said in the original "laughed at the top of the stairs" testimony.

I have always believed that she was up there -and if so - why? She admits to the part of taking up some clothes and sewing a bit of tape on a sleeve- maybe 5 minutes total much earlier in the morning. So why was she upstairs again when her father came home? Surely she could not have been in the kitchen- or else Bridget would have seen her when she came in from finishing up the windows. And Andrew would have called out to her when he could not get in through the screen door on the side.

I also want to know how that guestroom door got opened for Mrs. Churchill and Bridget to see Abby's corpse when Lizzie said it was closed when she came down earlier that morning. Someone HAD to go up and open it.

My theory is that she was cleaning up, hiding that dress, changing her clothing to her downstreet outfit, and concealing some potentially incriminating evidence- including the hatchet. This could not be done in a minute. Andrew rolls in about 10:35. Say Abby has been killed 35 minutes before. Allowing for some time to regain one's composure and do all the above, I would say the timing was pretty good. I think she was going to slip out the front when Bridget was inside and head on down the street. That way Bridget could not say for sure just when Lizzie left.I thought it was very quick of her to have that Sargent's sale all at the ready when she needed to try and tempt Bridget to leave the house. Yes, Lizzie would shop at Sargent's -she also wore ginghams and calicoes and it was a regular dry goods store.

Morse ate the food they had for Wednesday lunch at 1:30. The food that Abby ate which made her so sick was eaten on Tuesday night- swordfish I think.

[Kat]

Yes swordfish. There was also a question about the milk tho too- so that some was taken for testing- yet they did not take Tuesday's milk so that was no help.
But is my point understood about the food in the household?
The larder, the cooler, the stovetop stuffs?
Unless Abby knew specifically what was poisoned she could not further protect the family or Morse either.

Anyway, a time closer to 10 AM for Abby's death might work. But then there'd be say 20 minutes to clean up after the first kill and 20 minutes to clean up after the second? And be so presentable that nothing was found on her?
It's possible. But seems pretty hard to do for an amature (when we're still wrapping our minds around Lizzie getting cleaned up from Andrew in time...That would mean she accomplished the same feat twice you see...).
Hmmm...

[Shelley]

I think she learned enough from the first killing to put something over her dress the second time. The circumstances also were quite different. The killer straddled Abby, slashed viciously with a frenzy and got right down near the head to deliver a flurry of wild blows which gave ample opportunity to get bloody.. In Andrew's attack, the sofa protected the bottom of the murderer, the angle from the door offered some shielding and the killer did not have to straddle the body and tread on bloody carpet, nor have her skirts right on top of the victim being spattered.

As regards to the food- perhaps Bowen had eased her mind about the bread being poisoned by 1:30 Wednesday.

[Kat]

He might have eased her mind, but he said he did not see her after she came to his office that morning.
It seems to show she was not paranoid about the food, overall, is what I think.

[Yooper]

Abby served Morse the food after Dr. Bowen had minimized her complaint. Doesn't it make more sense to go to the doctor with the attitude of "I've been up all night vomiting, and I don't know why"? This might be represented as Abby having complained of stomach irritation, or perhaps ordinary (for that time) food poisoning. The testimony as it stands represents fear of poisoning rather than a specific manifestation.

The whole point is not whether or not the food was actually poisoned, it is Abby's fear of what might be happening and why she would fear it! Dr. Bowen's description of Abby's visit is hyperbole if Abby simply visited to complain of vomiting.

[doug65oh]

A variation on "gaslighting" - that what you're getting at? If so, it makes perfect sense.

[Shelley]

Boy, that was a great movie with Ingrid Bergman and Charles Boyer- gives one ideas doesn' it?!!

Poor Abby- how I wish all those ladies and Whiteheads had really spilled the beans and not held back on how life really was in that house. After that amateur daylight robbery of Abby's possessions- what else don't we know that could have happened? I think Bridget could have filled us in- but good!

[doug65oh]

It does plant the seed so to speak, for an extremely interesting question: Given what we know (which is admittely little, granted) of the family dynamic which existed in that house, is it at least plausible that someone might well have put Abby in such a position? The answer of course would be pure conjecture at this stage on our part; it is, however, as Mr. Holmes of 221-B might have put it, a most singular proposition.

[Shelley]

He also said "When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."- a man after my own heart!

[Yooper]

Lizzie may not have been aware of the content of Abby's conversation with Dr. Bowen, she may have only known that Abby feared being poisoned, and she went to Dr. Bowen against Andrew's wishes. Later that same day she attempted to buy prussic acid. Oddly coincidental? Or did Abby's visit to Dr. Bowen give Lizzie an idea? Abby may have become a serious liability, as Shelley mentioned earlier. She couldn't be counted on to suffer in silence any longer.

By the way, I'm not familiar with the term gaslighting, can someone fill me in?