Bridget

[doug65oh]

It’s pure conjecture on my part, but I can see Bridget returning to Ireland at least briefly – to get away home to Allihies awhile and put her self back together in a psychological sense. The region of Montana she chose to keep as her home on her return to the United States also makes sense, since there were copper mines there too and a fair number of the workers and wives were home folks from in and around Allihies. The best of both worlds, you might say.

[Yooper]

I'm having a hard time envisioning a scenario in which Bridget would have to cooperate with Lizzie unless she put herself in that situation. All Bridget needed to do at anytime was run from the house, screaming her head off if she came across either murder prior to Lizzie calling her downstairs. There was no particular allegiance to Lizzie, Bridget left the household as soon as she was able.

[Shelley]

I find it interesting that Bridget had no desire to stick around Fall River. I also wonder where she got the money to travel and re-locate. Maybe she had some relatives in Anaconda and Butte.

[Yooper]

Has anyone done any research into what it would actually cost to travel to the extent Bridget would have? I agree, a large amount of money might be questionable, but Bridget was able to get to the U.S. from Ireland at one point. What would she have earned over there, assuming she was working? I seem to remember her mentioning relatives in this country during testimony.

[Shelley]

If she had traveled steerage Boston-Liverpool on Cunard in 1893, she could have gotten a passage for maybe 20 dollars one-way. I just recall how poor she was made out to be and how she had to seek work with the prison matron until the trial was over. Maybe relatives sent her home for awhile and sent her some money for the passage. Here's a thought- maybe relatives were AFRAID to have Bridget in the city- afraid that someone might think she would blab something incriminating! Then there is always the possibility she would have a hard time getting work- there may have been those who thought she had something to do with the killings.

[FairhavenGuy]

Did she seek the work in New Bedford? I always thought the authorities had provided her with that job to more or less guarantee she'd be handy when they needed her.

[doug65oh]

That was my impression also, that it was a "position of convenience" provided by the authorities....not provided by, but they helped her get it in some way.

[Yooper]

If she had traveled steerage Boston-Liverpool on Cunard in 1893, she could have gotten a passage for maybe 20 dollars one-way. I just recall how poor she was made out to be and how she had to seek work with the prison matron until the trial was over. Maybe relatives sent her home for awhile and sent her some money for the passage. Here's a thought- maybe relatives were AFRAID to have Bridget in the city- afraid that someone might think she would blab something incriminating! Then there is always the possibility she would have a hard time getting work- there may have been those who thought she had something to do with the killings.

You may be on to something Shelley. If a lack of money was a problem for Bridget, then the offer of a sum of money was a possible threat if it came from the wrong person. If, for instance, a newspaper wanted an exclusive story about Bridget's unique perspective on the events after the trial, the possibility existed for Bridget to make a few dollars. I think Bridget put two and two together very early in the Borden case, not much later than when she found Abby. Just revealing this in public would have made her some money and she wouldn't have to perjure herself revealing anything which she hadn't already, such as a basis for a motive. This might threaten certain people and they may have been in a position to offer more money than the newspaper if she would leave as a condition.

[Yooper]

Another thought concerning Bridget's place within the Borden household: was Bridget a surrogate daughter to Abby? I'm having trouble reconciling what seems like an inordinate amount of effort to avoid killing Bridget with the seemingly disrespectful habit of referring to her as "Maggie".

This is purely conjecture, but Lizzie and Emma were nothing like daughters to Abby for at least five years prior to the murders. Bridget had been there two years and nine months, she arrived after the Whitehead residence incident. If Abby had ever mentioned something like her favorite doll as a child was named Maggie or if she had a daughter of her own she would name her Maggie, maybe referring to Bridget as Maggie had a different significance. It was still disrespectful of Bridget, but not by primary intent.

[Shelley]

I get the feeling that Bridget was maybe the only female ally poor old Abby had in that house. And for that reason maybe Abby had kindly feelings for Bridget, and Bridget, recognizing the situation, felt sorry for Abby. Sure, Mr. Borden was there, but women need a feminine port to run to in a storm, and maybe Bridget sympathized.
I have always wondered if Emma and Lizzie regarded not only Sarah Whitehead but more so Little Abbie as a huge threat. Little Abby was after all, Abby Borden's namesake, and I have seen these sort of dynamics MANY times, including in my own family circle of "favorite" grandchildren or nieces getting the lion's share of presents, attention and money and mention in the Will! I wish Bridget had been asked more about some of that- I suspect she saw and heard a lot of what went on when any of Abby's family tried to call at the house.

[FairhavenGuy]

Yooper,

Over the years it has been hammered home over and over again that the nickname Maggie was a common nickname given to Irish maids. It was not considered derogatory. Bridget herself is asked about that during her trial testimony. Lizzie and Emma propably called previous maids Maggie, too. It means nothing.

[Yooper]

Yooper,

Over the years it has been hammered home over and over again that the nickname Maggie was a common nickname given to Irish maids. It was not considered derogatory. Bridget herself is asked about that during her trial testimony. Lizzie and Emma propably called previous maids Maggie, too. It means nothing.

Well, then perhaps it means nothing. I can only suggest that a great many things have been hammered home over the years while the case remains a mystery. Perhaps we presume too much.

[FairhavenGuy]

In this case, though, Bridget dismisses the idea herself.

Another Bridget myth is she resented washing the windows one of the hottest days of the year. (It's been shown that the heat wasn't as bad as has been claimed, and 9:30 a.m. is not the hotter part of most summer days anyway. Mrs. Churchill notes that the Bordens' windows were washed about once a week and that Thursday was generally the day it was done. The Kelley's girl was also washing windows the very same morning.)

[Angel]

I remember last June when I visited Salem and Fall River I was extremely hot. The temperature wasn't all that bad, but I think it was the humidity that made me feel uncomfortable.

[Yooper]

In this case, though, Bridget dismisses the idea herself.

Another Bridget myth is she resented washing the windows one of the hottest days of the year. (It's been shown that the heat wasn't as bad as has been claimed, and 9:30 a.m. is not the hotter part of most summer days anyway. Mrs. Churchill notes that the Bordens' windows were washed about once a week and that Thursday was generally the day it was done. The Kelley's girl was also washing windows the very same morning.)

That's right, it wasn't like Lizzie and Emma had named "the dog" Maggie, at least Bridget didn't take it as that.

Bridget was only outside from maybe 9:30 until, say 10:30 a.m. Part of that time was spent chatting with Kelley's maid, so Bridget wasn't in any rush to hurry the window washing due to the heat. If it only took about an hour, including a break, it may not even have been an overly ominous chore.

[Yooper]

To me, it makes sense for Bridget to want to put the Bordens and Fall River as far behind her as possible and the sooner, the better. If it was me, and if I was down to my last dollar, I would get one dollar's worth of away from there. The Bordens had used up enough of her energy, her emotions, and her life. I can understand if someone offered me the price of a ticket to either talk or shut up about what I knew, I would be very tempted to take it.

[shakiboo]

I don't blame her either, I'd have gotten away from there as quick as I could too. Look how long the newspaper's kept up a yearly reminder of the murders. No one would want that kind of unwanted attention especially any family she worked for, and they'd have gone after Bridget for any tidbit she could give them. I think she made a wise choice clearing out and starting over somewhere else. Her family could have seen to it that she had enough money to at least return home.

[Yooper]

It just occurred to me a minute ago, there may be no more reason to spare Bridget than having broken the hatchet prior to calling her downstairs. Lizzie might not have thought of the consequences if she was cranked on adrenaline.

[Shelley]

Ah yes- my credo has always been- Keep It Simple!
The most obvious is oft overlooked.

[Shelley]

And of course, anyone who knew that house would know a murder in the sittingroom would not be heard on the third floor. Gee, what a GREAT thing that when Bridget said no to Sargent's she did not decide to bake cookies in the kitchen. And thank goodness the table was already set for lunch too- if not, Andrew would have had a narrow escape or Bridget would have joined them in Oak Grove.

[Angel]

That is really a creepy thought- that possibly the only reason Bridget was spared was because the handle broke. brrrrrrrr

[doug65oh]

Thing is... If Bridget was intended to die in that house, she could have been beaten to death with almost anything of sufficient size and weight. It wouldn't necessarily have to be a hatchet job. Bludgeoning might be just a bit neater. But any way you slice that pie, dead is dead.

[Allen]

I agree doughoh. If Lizzie wanted Bridget dead, and had already committed two prior murders, any method that lead to the desired outcome could've been used. Then she would've also had all the time she needed to clean up, and construct an alibi. Bridget also might have made an easy target if she was indeed dozing a little up in her room.

[Angel]

Actually, I don't think Lizzie was a murderer murderer. I think if she was the one who did it , it was because of intense reaction to something that was a threat to her in some way. She may have killed her parents but I don't think she would ever kill anyone else because it was just a one time thing- something that probably would never get as extreme for her again in her lifetime. I don't think she was capable of hurting anyone else.

[Yooper]

Then, too, if Lizzie needed more time to clean up, she would have simply taken it.

[chuckciao]

Actually, I don't think Lizzie was a murderer murderer. I think if she was the one who did it , it was because of intense reaction to something that was a threat to her in some way. She may have killed her parents but I don't think she would ever kill anyone else because it was just a one time thing- something that probably would never get as extreme for her again in her lifetime. I don't think she was capable of hurting anyone else.

Good point! That brings to mind something psychologist call dissociative syndrome where the attacker completely dissociates him/herself from the crime. In my opinion, this is what happened to OJ.

[Angel]

In O.J.'s case, I think he's just a thug.

[chuckciao]

In O.J.'s case, I think he's just a thug.

No doubt about it but I do think that he immediately dissociatiated from the murders.

[Angel]

Possibly. I cannot talk about him dispassionately. He just makes me sick.

[chuckciao]

Possibly. I cannot talk about him dispassionately. He just makes me sick.

Sorry, don't want to get away from Lizzie either. What do you think about her her dissassociating herself from the crime?

[shakiboo]

Lizzie would have had second thoughts about Bridget any way, she was a whole lot more capable of defending herself then the elderly Bordens, even catching Bridget by surprise might not have had the same effect. One wrong move or miscalculation on Lizzies part and the game would have been over. Bridget was taller, stronger, younger and in alot better shape then Lizzie, and the deciding factor, fear for her life would have made the maid a lot more of a problem then Lizzie would want.

[Angel]

I think that's very possible. She was so spacey afterwards with Mrs. Churchill.

[Cheryl]

The broken axe handle saving Bridget's life?....that sent shivers up my spine.

But I agree with Dougoh and Allen. In fact, I recall reading recently that most of the Villisca victims (6 of the 8 I believe) were murderered by the blunt side of the axe, not the blade itself. If Lizzie needed Bridget dead, she would have gotten the job done. Oh, such a sick thought.

[Yooper]

What sort of time pressure is Lizzie under? She doesn't know when Morse is going to return, does she know if he will return? Bridget might come downstairs at any time, but there is probably a reasonable time to expect her on her own, after all, Abby won't be calling her down any time soon.

[doug65oh]

Morse was if I recall correctly expected back at the house for lunch, by agreement that morning before he left. The exact time frame I don't recall, though it would have been around noontime I would think. Morse - am I correct in recalling that he returned to 92 Second not long before noontime?

Here's what Morse said, a quote from the Witness Statements, page 3:

"... Left, taking horse car, and stopped at the corner of Pleasant and Second streets, and got to Mr. Borden’s house about or near twelve o’clock. Saw a number of persons around the house, and was told that Mr. and Mrs. Borden was killed. That was the first I knew of their deaths.”

[Shelley]

Bridget did admit that sometimes she went up to tidy her room and grab a rest before the noonday meal. Lizzie probably knew she was only too glad to scoot upstairs since toiling all morning and would not rush down any too soon. Morse's arrival has always been confusing to me in regards to what Lizzie knew. She had not seen her Uncle at all, and we do not know whether or not she overheard, was told by Abby or her father Morse was coming back or not. I always wanted to know if an extra plate was laid on the diningroom table which may have tipped Lizzie off he was returning.
Any way you slice it, every time Bridget left, somebody died. And usually pretty quick- within 10- 15 minutes or so if you believe the timeline generally given of 9:30 and 11 a.m.

[FairhavenGuy]

We don't know that Lizzie knew Morse was coming back. She certainly might have. Her father could have said, "I'll shut my eyes until John come back for dinner" or something, but we don't know that for sure.

Why, I wonder, didn't Lizzie just leave the house herself? It has been speculated that she was going to do that following Abby's death, but Andrew got home early. But why not kill Andrew and then go out without calling Bridget at all?

I doubt the handleless hatchet, if it was the murder weapon, lost its handle during the course of the killing. Hatchet handles are far stronger than that.

Bridget wasn't meant to die, but she was also more useful to Lizzie as a witness who had seen nothing.

[doug65oh]

You raise two very good points: That we really don't know for sure what Lizzie knew about Morse returning for lunch, and that if she did know, the knowledge might well have come second-hand, or the sight of an extra place set at table. It;s difficult to do much there but conjecture.

Your second point is interesting because it makes perfect common sense: Andrew is dead on the sofa - why not just leave. Bridget is up the stairs in her room, and apparently none the wiser until Lizzie summons her.

Step out the door, walk up the street a short way and then return. Then things could proceed as they did, Lizzie could cry and caterwaul as she felt necessary to raise the alarm - and she would have had an alibi that stood a bit firmer than "I was up the loft..." eating pears, fetching sinkers, etc.

[Yooper]

I'm thinking the times of 9:30 and 11:00 are probably right, I really have no reason to doubt them. So if Lizzie was either aware of Morse being invited back, or unsure of it, she knew his return was at least a possibility. The only way she could dismiss that possibility is with awareness of his leaving for home, and that was clearly not possible. As Doug has posted, Morse did return around noon, but I wonder if Lizzie could have anticipated that timing. If Lizzie knew Morse would wait until he was reasonably sure Andrew would be home when he got there, perhaps. She probably couldn't be confident of anything much past 11:30?

Bridget might be more predictable. There may have been a time when she would think of getting dinner started, or finding Abby to ask about the menu. If dinner was regularly at noon, maybe 11:30(?) again, especially if Abby hadn't specified a menu. Getting the stove stoked was another consideration, with or without Abby.

[Yooper]

We don't know that Lizzie knew Morse was coming back. She certainly might have. Her father could have said, "I'll shut my eyes until John come back for dinner" or something, but we don't know that for sure.

Why, I wonder, didn't Lizzie just leave the house herself? It has been speculated that she was going to do that following Abby's death, but Andrew got home early. But why not kill Andrew and then go out without calling Bridget at all?

I doubt the handleless hatchet, if it was the murder weapon, lost its handle during the course of the killing. Hatchet handles are far stronger than that.

Bridget wasn't meant to die, but she was also more useful to Lizzie as a witness who had seen nothing.

I wasn't suggesting that the handleless hatchet lost its handle during the murders, I was suggesting it was taken somewhere, probably the cellar, and broken on purpose. What bothers me about that particular hatchet is the presence of a piece of handle still in the head. I would like to know two things about it. First, does the break in the handle look like it has been cut with either a saw or another hatchet or axe, even partway through? Or is the break randomly jagged as if it had been snapped in two? In looking at the photos, the hatchet seems to have a questionably clean break. Second, is there a wedge in the top of the handle which would have been used to tighten the head and prevent the head from flying off when used?

[Yooper]

Lizzie not leaving the house might be the result of an awareness of time. If Lizzie left the house, she ran the risk of being seen and recognized, and this could time stamp her exit. She might even run into a returning Uncle John if she wasn't careful. If she didn't know where he went, she wouldn't know which direction he was likely to return from, so it was a crap shoot. All she would have been aware of is at least the possibility of his return, and probably soon. It didn't need to be Uncle John, she might have been recognized by anyone. Bridget would probably come downstairs soon to look for Abby to find out about dinner. If that happened while Lizzie was halfway to wherever she was going to establish an alibi, it makes her exit look more like an escape attempt.

Lizzie didn't seem to have much patience. As people arrived she couldn't wait for the other shoe to drop, she needed Abby found right now! I get the idea she wanted the whole thing over with as soon as possible.

[Yooper]

If Lizzie thought Morse returning was a possibility, she might be inclined to not kill Bridget. It would use up more time and she had no guarantee of success. If she killed Bridget next and then left the house it would only put her closer to Morse's possible arrival time, and she would have less time to get to wherever to establish an alibi.

[Shelley]

And of course the simplest answer- Lizzie did not wish to kill Bridget. And as Bridget obligingly removed herself both times from the crime rooms vicinity- she did not have to be.

[doug65oh]

There was no real need to kill Bridget either tho, if you think about it. Beyond what she heard or may have heard of any conversation passing between Lizzie and Andrew Borden when he arrived, Bridget knew virtually nothing until Lizzie raised the alarm - she didn't see or hear anything at the very least. By the time Bridget began putting two and two together and suspecting, the house was full of police. Before that, she really only knew what Lizzie told her - or wanted her to know. See what I mean? Lizzie was still in the proverbial cat-bird seat.

[Shelley]

Quite true- but it would have been a different kettle of fish if Bridget had stayed in the kitchen making lunch- she may owe her life to that bloody ole mutton being rehashed and re-heated!

[doug65oh]

That's true. I really think were I Morse and there was mutton on the menu again... I'd have picked up something from either Tripp's or James Whitehead's eatery on the way back!

[Kat]

I'm catching up here guys. Long thread!
I hope this doesn't seem disjointed but my observations so far are as notes taken along the way reading this:

Lizzie came back home on the 26th of July and I had wondered if she came back home in anticipation of her period? This refers back to that pail of cloths. Someone said Lizzie might like to have *distanced* herself from that pail. I'm not sure what was meant by that. It's her pail, it proves she had a period, it is a reason to have blood on cloths- I would think it did her a world of good to claim that pail. (?)Why was it thought not?

Anyway, so my thoughts were on that and her period. But then I think we find that Lizzie went away again after coming home- she went away on Saturday the 30th to Marion for the day, we think. That would be the day her period was due if my calculations are correct: July 30- August 3 = 5 days for a period. So I can't reconcile that- unless there was less a reason she returned due to not wishing to have her menses while away from home due to some complications she might habitually suffer from during those times. But maybe more so she returned in order to have her period at home, not because it was uncomfortable and too public a thing to undergo whilst visiting away- but rather she came home in order to have a pail full of bloody cloths in case a plan worked out to kill and the pail was needed in the plan...a hide-in-plain-sight plan some of you are proponents of, when it comes to that pail.
Just my thoughts so far and commentary.
Whew!
Onward!

[Kat]

Now, Dr. Dolan did examine the cloths. And I think 2 policemen did look at the contents of the pail sort of perfunctorily while it was still in the cellar.

[Kat]

Lizzie may have managed to put herself in the barn loft during Andrew's murder, but also we should remember how astonished Knowlton was (it seems to me) when he realized she was telling him that she put herself in front of the west window that had a view of the side steps while she ate her pears! And admitted she could see down there if there was anything to be seen, during her time at the window.
The only thing she wouldn't see during that time, if an intruder got in, was the front door. (I think it might have been possible from her angle of sight that she might not have been able to see if someone entered the cellar door tho.)

[Kat]

Only Emma and Lizzie called Bridget "Maggie"- Mrs. Borden called her Bridget I think.