Lizzie Borden Society Forum

The Note.

Did Lizzie lie to Andrew about Abby having gotten a note that "someone was sick?" Or, did Abby lie to Lizzie about it?

I think we would all agree that there never was a note at all. If someone had sent such a note they would surely have come forward in the wake of the crimes. No one ever did.

If Lizzie is the liar she would have done it to cover up Abby's whereabouts.

But if Abby lied to Lizzie about a note she might have done it to give her a reason to leave the house to go to meet Andrew to finalize papers or a will. If Lizzie surmised that this was the case then Abby's fate was sealed. She would never leave that house alive.

It might also explain the rage in the blows she received. And Lizzie's rage toward Andrew for this real or perceived betrayal.

Just something to think about on Christmas afternoon.

I'm inclined to believe that Abby lied to Lizzie at first. I think there was a reason behind John Morse visiting, and I think it may be the same reason Lizzie was sticking so close to home, though she was supposed to have accompanied her friends to Marion. Maybe Emma knew there was trouble brewing, and decided to go visit friends in Fairhaven to get out of the house. I am not 100% sure what it was, but I think Abby and Andrew were planning something.Putting the farm in Abby's name? Making up a will? Whatever it was, it pushed Lizzie over the edge and she snapped, killing Abby in a fit of rage first, then Andrew. Though I'm up for debate over whether or not she intended to kill Andrew.I think Abby lied to Lizzie about receiving a note calling her to the home of some sick person which never surfaced after the murders, though there was a reward posted. Then while being questioned about Abby's where abouts,and trying to come up with her own explanations, she could've used it herself.She had to think up a lie, and think it up quick, but Lizzie was not an inventive liar."Well she SAID she received a note...."

[quote="Allen @ Sat Dec 25, 2004 9:03 pm"]I'm inclined to believe that Abby lied to Lizzie at first. quote]


I am too, but I don't know why.

RonRico @ Sat Dec 25, 2004 3:30 pm wrote:The Note.

I think we would all agree that there never was a note at all. If someone had sent such a note they would surely have come forward in the wake of the crimes. No one ever did.

The only thing I can agree on is that 2 people were murdered that day!

Prelim
Bridget
20
Q. When she came down, what room did she come into from the front hall?
A. In the sitting room where I was; then she went into the dining room.

Q. That is where Mr. Borden was?
A. Yes.

Q. Did you hear her say anything to Mr. Borden?
A. I heard her ask him if he had any mail for her. I heard her telling her father very slowly that her mother got a note, that Mrs. Borden had a note that morning, and had gone out.

Q. You heard her telling that very slowly?

Page 21

A. Yes Sir, to her father.

Q. Had got a note?
A. From some sick person. Of course the conversation was very low, I did not pay any attention to it; but I heard her telling her father that.

Q. What else did you hear her say to her father?
A. Not any more.

--Do you think that Lizzie was questioning Andrew about the note and Bridget was confused at what she heard?
Otherwise, Lizzie had no need to explain a note came to Andrew, if he was in on it.

Kat @ Sat Dec 25, 2004 10:39 pm wrote:
Q. Did you hear her say anything to Mr. Borden?
A. I heard her ask him if he had any mail for her. I heard her telling her father very slowly that her mother got a note, that Mrs. Borden had a note that morning, and had gone out.

Q. You heard her telling that very slowly?

Page 21

A. Yes Sir, to her father.

It could very well be that she was testing Andrew for a reaction. Have you ever tried to catch someone in a lie this way? To read their reaction? Watch for little tells? Why would she say it very slowly? Maybe to put some emphasis on it? Maybe his reaction is what sealed his fate?But this will be a point we will never have enough information to know for sure.

If the reasoning is that Lizzie was questioning Andrew about a note rather than informing him of one, then I agree this could seal his fate and finally set in motion her plan or anothers.
We would need to check all testimony concerning the note from all witnesses that refer to it to get a proper context and see if this theory holds up.

Audrey @ Sat Dec 25, 2004 11:26 pm wrote:

RonRico @ Sat Dec 25, 2004 3:30 pm wrote:The Note.

I think we would all agree that there never was a note at all. If someone had sent such a note they would surely have come forward in the wake of the crimes. No one ever did.

The only thing I can agree on is that 2 people were murdered that day!

On this we differ. The non existence of the note is one of the few things I am certain of here. If a note existed there is no doubt in my mind that someone would have come forward. Either the author or the deliverer of it.

I agree RonRico. So many people take Lizzie's words as fact, such as with the note. She is the only one who says Abby got a note. If Lizzie committed the murders, that gives her every reason to lie about whatever she likes to try and cover her tracks.I think the note was a ruse on Abby's part to try and get out of the house. Lizzie knew it.

Trial
Churchill
367-368

Q. What did Bridget tell you about Mrs. Borden having a note?
A. She said Mrs. Borden had a note to go to see some one that was sick, and she was
dusting the sitting-room, and she hurried

Page 368

off, and says, "She didn't tell me where she was going; she generally does."

Q. That was what Bridget told you?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. That was not what Lizzie told you?
A. No, sir.

Q. Bridget said Mrs. Borden had a note?
A. Yes.

Q. And she hurried off?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. She was dusting the sitting-room?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And Bridget says, "She didn't tell me where she was going; she generally does."?
A. Bridget said.

Q. Bridget said that?
A. Yes, sir.


Q. That was not what Lizzie said?
A. No, sir.

Q. Now, you have got that right, haven't you? No doubt about that?
A. That Bridget said that, "Mrs. Borden had a note to go to see some one that was sick.
She was dusting in the sitting-room. She hurried off. She didn't tell me where she was
going, she generally does."


*******

I do not accept what Lizzie says as fact.... But when one reads testimony one has to accept that a note may have been delivered that morning..

Bridgets trial testimony pages 226-228

Q.You will have to speak a little louder.

A.Mrs. Borden was in the dining-room, as I was fixing my dining-room table, and she asked me if I had anything to do this morning.I said
No, not particular, if she anything to do for me.She said she wanted
the windows washed.I asked her how, and she said "inside and outside
both, they are awful dirty."

Q.What was she doing when you had that talk with her in the dining-room?

A.She was dusting. She had a feather duster in her hand.She was
dusting in between the sitting-room and dining-room door.

Q.Do you recall whether she had any covering over her hair at the time?

A.No, sir, I don't think she did.

Q.When after that did you see Mrs. Borden?

A.I don't remember to see her, I don't remember to see Mrs. Borden
before since she came down into the kitchen.

Q.I don't think I made myself clear to you.You have told us that
in the dining-room,after you finished washing the dishes, that she
gave you some directions about washing the windows?

A.Yes, sir.

Q. And that time she was dusting between the dining-room and sitting-room?

A.Yes, sir.

Q.Now I ask you when next after that event did you see Mrs. Borden alive?
A.I didn't see her anymore until I found her dead upstairs.
===============================================
Bridgets trial testimony page 236.

Q, What did she say, if anything, to her father?
A.I heard her ask her father if he had any mail, and they had some talk between them which I didn't understand or pay attention to,but I heard her tell her father that Mrs. Borden had got a note and gone out.

page 237-238

Q. Did she say anything to you,or you to her, while you were doing that, and she was doing what you describe?
A.She said "Maggie, are you going out this afternoon?" I said "I don't know; I might and might not; I don't feel very well." She says,"If you go out, be sure and lock the door, for Mrs. Borden had gone out on a sick call, and I might go out too."Says I, "Miss Lizzie, who is sick?" "I don't know; she had a note this morning, it must be in town."


It seems that Bridget only learned of the note through Lizzie also. If she told Mrs. Churchill Abby had gotten a note and went out, it seems she may have only been going on the information given her by Lizzie.

It all boils down to reasonable doubt...

A person can decide who, in their opinion, had the most credibility--and I think that one has to come to some personal conclusions to form an opinion or a theory--but it is all subjective. That is what makes it fun and frustrating all in one!

Audrey @ Sun Dec 26, 2004 3:51 pm wrote: That is what makes it fun and frustrating all in one!

I agree whole heartedly with that Audrey! Is going over the facts of this case frustrating? YES .There are so many contradictions. But is it fun to try to come up with a theory to fit those same facts? YES

Sometimes it is also fun to throw a wrench in the works too!

There are days I wish I could make myself invisible and time travel back to the day of the murders and watch the whole thing-- and then there are days I don't want to.....

The testimony that Mrs. Churchill heard about a note from Bridget who heard it from Mrs. Borden had been explained later as a misconception and also it seems, the questioner was trying to confuse the issue on purpose.
It gets cleared up later by Bridget that she only heard about the note from Lizzie.
The questions cited were misleading by counsel, and further study shows that testimony elicited was downright wrong.

Let's assume for a moment that Abby did want to escape the house to meet Andrew about a will or some real estate transaction so she told Lizzie that she had received a note to visit a sick friend. Then Lizzie put two and two together and Abby was murdered and never left the house to meet Andrew. Don't you think that he would have asked Bridget immediately upon his arrival "where is Mrs. Borden?" I would think he'd be somewhat irate that she hadn't shown. Yet, Bridget doesn't say anything about him questioning her. If he had, that also might be a reason why Lizzie snickered on the stairs. Or if he hadn't asked Birdget about Abby's whereabouts, I would think that he would ask Lizzie and Bridget would have overheard that. It is very confusing...

It is stated by Bridget in her trial testimony that when Andrew came home, Bridget heard Lizzie tell Andrew that Abby had gotten a note and gone out.She did not know what the rest of the conversation was, and she had not paid any attention to it.

weber @ Tue Dec 28, 2004 8:39 am wrote:Let's assume for a moment that Abby did want to escape the house to meet Andrew about a will or some real estate transaction so she told Lizzie that she had received a note to visit a sick friend. Then Lizzie put two and two together and Abby was murdered and never left the house to meet Andrew. Don't you think that he would have asked Bridget immediately upon his arrival "where is Mrs. Borden?" I would think he'd be somewhat irate that she hadn't shown. Yet, Bridget doesn't say anything about him questioning her. If he had, that also might be a reason why Lizzie snickered on the stairs. Or if he hadn't asked Birdget about Abby's whereabouts, I would think that he would ask Lizzie and Bridget would have overheard that. It is very confusing...

By assuming that, it sort of makes sense about the note- because we are of the understanding that Mrs. Borden tells Bridget if she is going to go out so Bridget is the one he might ask.
If Lizzie "put two and two together" at the moment of hearing Abby's excuse to go out, and knew there was something clandestine going on, she would have had to react right there and then. She would go down to the cellar to get a hatchet (or to her room- if she was pre-pared) and fell Abby almost immediately. It might have even involved that chase the early news reports put out- Abby running upstairs to get away from the killer.
THen Bridget could know all about it, because she never admits to knowing where Abby was all morning nor that Andrew asked her any questions about Mrs. Borden, and both girls would stick to the note story- that Lizzie was told that and that Bridget overheard just that much.

To check myself to see if Mrs. Borden always told Bridget when she was going out, I found something interesting. It is the question asked, but not answered, that I could find. So we know it has been implied by the state, but from Bridget herself - we don't know if this is the habit.

Preliminary
Bridget

Q. Had Mrs. Borden said anything to you about going out that day?
A. No Sir.

Q. Was it her habit to tell you when she was going out?

(Objected to.)

(Court) Your objection is sustained as a matter of course.

(Mr. Knowlton) As to whether it was Mrs. Borden's habit to notify her hen she was going out. I suppose I could show it was her universal habit to notify this girl when she went out for any errand whatever. I am going to show she did not this morning.

Q. Had she told you anything about going out that morning?
A. No Sir.

Q. Whether it was her habit?

(Objected to.)

(Court) Excluded.

Q. The only person you have heard anything about going out from, was from Lizzie?
A. Yes Sir.

(Objected to as leading.)
________

Trial
Bridget
Q. Did Mrs. Borden have any habit -- you can answer this yes or no and nothing more
-- of telling you when she went out.

MR. ROBINSON. Wait a moment: I object to it. I simply
did not want the witness to answer yet.

MR. MOODY. My question was objectionable even as
a preliminary one, I will modify it.
(After a short pause) Well, it may raise
the whole question. We will leave it
there.

MASON, C.J. It is excluded.

MR. MOODY. Nothing further from this witness.

MASON, C.J. We will stop here and let the officers be sworn.


The Court at 4:55 P.M. adjourned until 9 o'clock, Thursday morning, June 8th.

I meant to include earlier that the dispute about whether Mrs. Churchill was told about the note from Bridget's own knowledge is compounded as error in the closing arguments by the defense. It's shameless exploitation, in my opinion, and it's hard to forgive the man for (probably) knowingly confusing the issue in closing with something not in testimony as evidence!

Trial
Robinson Closing
1653
Now that is what Bridget told Mrs. Churchill. You get the idea. Both Bridget and Lizzie had learned from Mrs. Borden that she had had a note. Mrs. Borden had told Lizzie. Mrs. Borden had told Bridget. She had given Bridget the work to do, washing the windows.

----

--However one makes those little "mad red" faces, I would put one here...

The more I think about this, the more I think that Abby did want to escape the house without Lizzie knowing about it. I also wonder if Lizzie hadn't overheard Uncle and the Bordens the night before when she came home. Perhaps they were speaking of the new will or putting the farm in Abby's name. Then the next morning, when Abby said she had received a note, Lizzie had to act quickly. Bridget may or may not have know about Abby's murder but would probably know about Father's. Then Lizzie said that she would pay her to keep quiet but if she started talking that she (Lizzie) would point the finger at her (Bridget).

I have never wanted (for some reason) to believe that Lizzie did it. However, the more I hear, I think she did and just got darn lucky to be acquitted.

Perhaps the rhyme isn't so far off..."when she saw what she had done, she gave her father 41". Maybe she never intended to kill him but things got out of hand...All just a supposition, of course.

If there really was a note, don't you think Lizzie would be inquisitive enough to ask who was sick? Did she hate Abby so much that she could care less who was supposedly sick? If Abby said she had a note, and Lizzie knew she was really up to something else, why wouldn't she challenge her on it? But if Lizzie made the whole note issue up, she again has very vague explanations!!

Lizzie very well could have questioned Abby about it, not liking Abby's answers and realizing that she was lieing, it could have set her off.

Yes that's possible. No real note, just the excuse of a note. That would raise Lizzie's suspicions, she could confront Abby and maybe Abby snapped.
Earlier, a "friend" told the girls about the transfer of the Whitehead house and advised the girls to ask for the grandfather's property.
They may have had an inside (outside) informant and prepared a plan in case...and that would be why Lizzie came back from New Bedford.

It still seems possible that Bridget knew what happened because she didn't get started outside on the windows until 9:30 and no one had seen Abby since around 9.

My education (Psychology/Criminology) taught me that in cases like this one cannot look at something like the note with a firm opinion of guilt or innocence or your conclusions will be preconceived.

It is very hard not to make conclusions in this case and I get frustrated easily!

Does one need to decide first of all if there was a note or no note? Just based on what is known- that no one came forward even with a cash incentive?
Wouldn't a criminalist try to answer this question even before they made a distinction of who possily *did it*?

yes... and that is an important point.

The evidence does not suggest the existance of a note---- I have to concede that point!

This case arouses so many emotions!

If we accept that there is no evidence of a note then do we also have to accept that the vast majority of the evidence makes Lizzie look not guilty?

No one outside the house claimed a note. Testimony indicates the story of the note originated with Lizzie. I think something was up in the Borden household in early August, something quite possibly involving money and/or property. But I am not so sure that Abby was on her way out the door that Thursday morning to meet Andrew. Andrew's last walk included stops at a couple of banks, the post office, the barber shop, and a storefront undergoing renovation. Other people saw him at all of these places and in-between. His movements do not seem to indicate he was waiting for Abby, or anyone, to arrive at a particular destination at a particular time. Around 9 AM Abby was dusting and still dressed for housecleaning chores; no one came forward to say that she missed an appointment scheduled for anywhere that morning or failed to arrive at a place where someone was sick. I suspect the note was Lizzie's way of establishing to her father and Bridget that Abby was absent for legitimate reasons and Lizzie did not know where she was. While I think Lizzie had been planning all morning to kill Andrew she did not know whether the opportunity would now present itself. If Andrew was still alive when Abby's body was found Lizzie needed a story about Abby's whereabouts that could sound somewhat believeable and the tale of the note was all she had.

An odd aside here:
It seems to me that Lizzie didn't want to acknowledge a note at all.
She seems to only have claimed it publically once she knew Bridget overheard. I think it's possible the note story was for Andrew only, then she was stuck with it and didn't know it would blow out of all proportion to what she had told spontaneously to Andrew.

Inquest
Lizzie
62
A. I did not see her after when I went down in the morning and she was dusting the dining room.
Q. Where did you or she go then?
A. I don't know where she went. I know where I was.
Q. Did you or she leave the dining room first?
A. I think I did. I left her in the dining room.
Q. You never saw her or heard her afterwards?
A. No, sir.
.....

63
Q. Can you give me any suggestion as to what occupied her when she was up there, when she was struck dead?
A. I don't know of anything except she had some cotton cloth pillow cases up there, and she said she was going to commence to work on them. That is all I know. And the sewing machine was up there.
.......

Q. If she had remained down stairs, you would undoubtedly have seen her?
A. If she had remained down stairs, I should have; if she had remained in her room, I should not have. If she had remained down stairs, I should have. If she had gone to her room, I should not have.

......

Q. If she had remained down stairs, or had gone to her own room, you undoubtedly would have seen her?
A. I should have seen her if she had stayed down stairs; if she had gone to her room, I would not have seen her.
Q. She was found a little after 11 in the spare room, if she had gone to her own room she must have gone through the kitchen and up the back stairs, and subsequently have gone down and gone back again?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you any reason to suppose you would not have seen her if she had spent any portion of the time in her own room, or down stairs?
A. There is no reason why I should not have seen her if she had been down there, except when I first came down stairs, for two or three minutes I went down cellar to the water closet.
......

64
Q. I ask again, perhaps you have answered all you care to, what explanation can you give, can you suggest, as to what she was doing from the time she said she had got the work all done in the spare room until 11 o'clock?
A. I suppose she went up and made her own bed.
........

Q. Otherwise than that, she would have to go in your sight?
A. I should have to have seen her once; I don't know that I need to have seen her more than once.
Q. You did not see her at all?
A. No sir, not after the dining room.
Q. What explanation can you suggest as to the whereabouts of your mother from the time you saw her in the dining room, and she said her work in the spare room was all done, until 11 o'clock?
A. I don't know. I think she went back into the spare room, and whether she came back again or not I don't know; that has always been a mystery.
Q. Can you think of anything she could be doing in the spare room?
A. Yes sir. I know what she used to do sometimes. She kept her best cape she wore on the street in there, and she used occasionally to go up there to get it and to take it into her room. She kept a great deal in the guest room drawers; she used to go up there and get things and put things; she used those drawers for her own use.
.....

65
Q. Assuming that she did not go into her own room, I understand you to say she could not have gone to her own room without your seeing her?
A. She could while I was down cellar.
.......

[FINALLY, Lizzie recalls! Oh yea, she had a note!:]

Q. After that time she must have remained in the guest chamber?
A. I don't know.
Q. So far as you can judge?
A. So far as I can judge she might have been out of the house, or in the house.
Q. Had you any knowledge of her going out of the house?
A. No sir.
Q. Had you any knowledge of her going out of the house?
A. She told me she had had a note, somebody was sick, and said "I am going to get the dinner on the way," and asked me what I wanted for dinner.
Q. Did you tell her?
A. Yes, I told her I did not want anything.
Q. Then why did you not suppose she had gone?
A. I supposed she had gone.

--This is elicited after Bridget has already testified in secret to the inquest. My feeling is Lizzie finally catches on that Bridget heard and told about the note and now a note exists.