Is this 92 Second St?

Stefani · Post by **Stefani** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:29 pm

I was viewing the A&E documentary "Lizzie Borden: A Woman Accused" and they showed this ubiquitous photo of supposedly Fall River. The voice says, "Lizzie Andrew Borden was born on July 19, 1860, in the Massachusetts mill town of Fall River, the last of three children." They fade to this image as a Fall River shot, but the house and street look familiar to me.

Is this a very old image of 92 Second Street or just some street that happens to look like that one? Any ideas?

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:43 am

Stefani I'm watching that tape as we speak and I think that is 2 St. the first housse looks like Lizzie's to me.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:53 am

I just put in my copy of that video. I don't think it is 92 2nd St. because of what looks like cement walls just off the sidewalk rather than the fence...in front of a 'front yard'. A few minutes after the house in your picture appears...they show the Borden house...it has the fence.

I like this video. Michael Martins, Jules Ryckebusch, and Ed Thibault do a wonderful job of explaining the facts.

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:00 am

Do the houses on either side look like these?

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:28 am

I can't tell for sure because of the tree, but it looks as if the roof is slopeing towards the street instead of towards the side yard as it does on the second street house.

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:30 am

stuartwsa · Post by **stuartwsa** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:33 am

The roof is definitely sloping the wrong way.

Edisto · Post by **Edisto** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:11 am

The tree certainly does obscure things; however, to me the first-floor windows look taller and narrower than those of the Borden house. That effect could be caused by the angle from which the picture was taken, but it's similar to the angle in other pictures I've seen. I think the (Greek Revival) style of the Borden house was a popular one and that many houses in Fall River had a similar look. There's a picture of one such house in one of the "Victorian Vistas" volumes. The author says it is the Borden house, but if one looks carefully, there are differences. Something like the fence or wall in front of the house could have been changed over time, but I don't think "replacement windows" were as big in Victorian times as they are today.

prussicacid · Post by **prussicacid** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:31 am

In the picture I've got of the Borden House there certainly is a big tree slightly down hill of the front door but it is situated between the pavement ( sidewalk) and the road. There also is a wicket fence /gate rather than a low brick wall.
Tricky one!

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:34 pm

Well it appears to me after blowing it up a bit more that there are two windows on either side of the door, which is definitely not the case with 92 Second street. This could just be a trick though, since the house next to it sits so close.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:19 pm

I agree, that house with the women and children out front doesn't appear to be the Borden house. The roofline looks as though it slopes the wrong way, the pilasters (flat columns) at the corners of the house are missing as well as the shutters on the windows. And, the houses all look to be too close together.

Heres a pic looking up Second Street at #92 from the LBVM&L site:

Could it be a pic of further up the street from the Borden's house or further down, closer to downtown?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:32 am

Here's the nun picture, Edisto[

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:04 pm

That is a great picture Kat...THANKS for sharing !

Tracy...

john · Post by **john** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:16 pm

Good thinking Fargo. Also the chimney.

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:40 pm

NUN: "Run girls! Hurry! Lizzie was very unkind to her parents!"

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:03 pm

If that's 92 second street with the nun in the picture then the front doorway must have been changed as it is not inset like it was in 1892 and like it is today.

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:08 pm

If that's 92 second street with the nun in the picture then the front doorway must have been changed as it is not inset like it was in 1892 and like it is today.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:00 pm

Also, there appears to be a glass panel in the front door with a curtain in it. The Borden's front door is/was a six panel wood door, no glass in it. Isn't the front door at the B&B still the original?

Bob, thats too funny.

Stefani · Post by **Stefani** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:12 pm

Thank you EVERYONE for solving this little mystery for me! I agree, it is NOT 92 second street. Great sleuths all! (It wasn't a test of any kind, I really was curious what everyone thougth!)

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:49 am

I just wrote about the house, it's previous owners and the Press building in the last Hatchet issue. Bill Pavao told me the front door was original at least back to the Bordens, however it can't be proven the locks are the same.

The nun picture we have discussed before and decided it was another house. V.V. has misnamed it.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:49 am

Thank you, Kat. I seem to recall that that info was posted in the past about the front door, perhaps by you? Its still a great picture, would be good for a caption contest.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:20 am

They just thought Emma was in Providence...

edits due to testing...

john · Post by **john** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:27 am

I know those buildings, it's Milan - and I remember the nun.

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:31 pm

Funny Kat, great pix. Seeing the door made me
remember that our front door in the house I grew
up in (exact Lizzie layout) had one of those split
doors, where you could just open the top half. (remember Mr. Ed?) I don't think I've ever seen a
door like that again.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:48 pm

Those doors are cool....Wiiiilber. We had one in our kitchen.

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:22 am

Talk about that style of house being common in Fall River- get a load of this!

please click on pic

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:32 pm

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:47 pm

I'd like to see the other side- the interior stairway side- to see how they handled that- a fake window or no window?
It looks like Andrew Borden's dream of Levitown

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:44 am

I have been wondering about that. The side of the house where the leary press used to be shows a covered in window where the staircase is. Is the front staircase is not original to the house? As the house was built originaly as two flats. Could there have been a window there that was partialy covered by the staircase from the inside of the house? I have seen that on other houses.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:34 am

I never noticed it before but Harry called it a fake window to me. Meaning I guess that from the outside there is a frame etc., but no window on the inside.
I've heard that elsewhere too.

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:40 am

If you look at the pictures of the fake window in 1892, it looks as if there are 1 or 2 wooden strips in the middle of the window going vertical. This gives it the look of having closed shutters, which for all I know mabe that's what it is. If you look at the recent pictures of the house with the leary press gone, the wooden strips are not there.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:37 am

The fake window would have to be fake as there is no corresponding window on the inside of the house. That window falls where the front staircase is, and Bill Pavao, former curator of the B&B, has assured us that the staircase is original to the house.

There is a real window at the top of the staircase opposite the landing leading to the guest room.

In the floor plans provided by Bill Pavao, showing the house dimensions, and posted to this forum a while back, it shows a sizable closet from the sitting room to beneath the front stairs. I don't remember much, if any, discussion of that area during the police searches. It's a closet I want to look at on the next trip to FR.

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:33 pm

That closet in my house under the stairs was huge,
went deep past the coat rack, a place to hide and
play. We had a window up on the stairs also, it would face the guest room. As Kat or someone posted, those houses at the time were a dime a dozen, must have been a Sears Robuck sale to buy
the plans for 2 dollars.

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 10:12 pm

I guess that there must be some of these similar houses still there. I guess that the layouts were similar also.

That house with the nun in front would be a hard one to tell from 92 second street if it wasn't for the front doorway, as the street in front of the house even has the same kind of slope that the street in front of 92 second street has.

The fake window on 92 second street has definitely been changed somewhat from the outside. In 1892 it looked like it had closed shutters, today it just looks like a window that has been covered up.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:56 am

Sitting Room closet under the stairs. You can get an idea of depth by looking at the hooks on the left wall.

This is in the Borden B&B as it was March of 2004 before it sold.

Please click on the picture to make it bigger. If that doesn't work, please let me know.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:55 pm

Thanks for the pic, Kat. That closet doesn't look very deep at all, but, it does look it could hold an adult with the door closed. This closet never was suspect as a potential hiding place for an outside murderer, I wonder why not? Was it always locked? Too full of junk for someone to have gotten into it?

john · Post by **john** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:19 pm

I clicked on the picture and it didn't work, I mean the picture got bigger, but other things didn't work, and you said to let you know.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:33 am

If you can see it, that's what matters.
Thanks for letting me know nothing else happened

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:21 am

Susan took the words that I was going to say right out of my mouth. The closet at the foot of the staircase was considered a hiding place for an intruder in 1892. I looked in the closet at the foot of the staircase when I was at the house. I didn't look in the closet under the stairs while I was there though. From the picture it looks like its more roomy than the closet at the foot of the staircase.

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:24 pm

The closet at the top of the stairs across from Lizzie's room would have been much larger, it was the size of my folk's bathroom with headroom and a
much better place to hide someone, although I think
both closets were used to hide the murderer.

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:26 am

Wasn't the room across from lizzie's room (the dressing room and or closet) kept locked?

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:26 am

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:06 am

That's a good question, Fargo. Did the Bordens go so far as to lock a closet? Or the dressing room? It was Abby's dressing room. But didn't you have to go thru Abby's bedroom to get to it?

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:52 pm

That is a different dressing room, the one off of Abby's bedroom. I think that it is the room in which the theft of Abby's jewelry took place. I don't know if it was kept locked because Abby's bedroom door was kept locked and as you say you have to go through Abby's bedroom to get to it. In a way there would be no point in locking it, except mabe to slow down a burglar.

The room that we are refering to is the room in the front of the house and has a window facing second street, it is now a bathroom.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:50 am

Trial testimony of Alice M. Russell page 384:

Q. Did you at any time see her doing anything with reference to the clothes closet door? That is over the front hall. You know that room I mean?
A.Yes, sir.

Q. The large closet with the window in it, facing out to the street. What did you see her do with reference to that door?
A. When?

Q. At any time while you were up in that room with her before the officers came?
A. I didn't see her do anything.

Q. Did you at any time during that day see her go to that door?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. When was that?
A. I don't remember just when.

Q. How many times did you see her go to that door.
A.I remember of her going twice.

Q. And what did she do when she went to the room to get into it?
A. She unlocked it.

Q. Each time?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you recall where she took the key from?
A. No, sir.

Q. Do you know Mr. Fleet; Do you know him now?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Assistant Marshall of Fall River?
A.Yes, sir.

Q. Did you see anything between him and her with reference to that door Did he go into that door?
A. I don't know.

Q.Did you see her give any key to Mr. Fleet?
A. No, sir.

Q. Did you see her unlock the door for Mr. Fleet?
A.No, sir. At least I don't remember.

Q.You don't remember it?
A.No, sir.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Trial testimony of John Fleet page 461+:

Q. Where did you then go, Mr. Fleet?
A.I then went upstairs to the front bedroom or spare bedroom, so called; saw Mrs. Borden laid dead between the bed and the dressing case.

Q. Thence where did you go?
A.I came out the head of the stairs, turned to the right to open the door, but found it was locked. I then asked if there was anybody in the house that knew anything about it. Dr. Bowen--

Q. What door was this that you came out of the guest chamber and turned--
A. To the right.

Q. What does that door lead to?
A. To a closet over the stairs.

Q. Finding it locked, then, you had some talk with some one, and where did you go: what did you do?
A. I then went into the room where Miss Lizzie was, sitting down on a lounge or a sofa with Rev' Mr. Buck, Miss Russell being in there.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Page 472:

Q. After you had completed observation in that room, where did you go, Mr. Fleet?
A.I got the keys, or asked Lizzie what was in this room, and she said that that was a clothes press.

Q. Pointing to what room when you said that?
A. Pointing to the room directly in front of Lizzie's room, that is the door directly in front of Lizzie's as you come out, or directly over the stairs.

Q.Is that the door you referred to before as having been locked?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now go on and say what was said and done in reference to that.
A. Lizzie got the keys and opened the door,unlocked the door.

Q. Do you know where she got the key from to unlock the door?
A. She got them from her room.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:32 am

I remember that window looks out north over toward Mrs. Churchill's place but you can see the street to the west OK from there. Apparently dust from the road would get in there so they had the window stuffed with paper and a sheet-like covering over the dresses in there.