Grand Jury List Of Witnesses

[Kat]

The Fall River Daily Globe has this HUGE gigantic article dated May 27th, 1893 covering the whole story of the crimes up until that date. I've been reading it for several evenings (it's taking a while because I'm taking notes). It's from Terence's Collection.

It brings up the Grand Jury and says they started on the Borden case on November 15th. (I believe the jury was called Nov. 7th, but examined other cases as well and got to Borden the 15th if this latter date is correct).
The article lists 74 names of witnesses and says they allowed just about anyone who had anything to say on the matter, which the paper described as unusal and rarely done. It also says that the jury visited Fall River to look around on the 18th.

Some of these names are not familiar- and Phil Harrington is named twice (I guess he really made an impact).
There are so many names I wondered if there was a will and a way for us to find out about them?
They may not be important- but just one may- and I can't figure out a way to check them all.
Any suggestions?
Can anyone help, if I type them up?

BTW: I did check them against the Trickey-McHenry list from October but there are no matches, Thank Goddess.

[nbcatlover]

Let's see the list of names, please.

[Allen]

Bring on the names .

[DWilly]

I'd love to see the list and I'll help in anyway I can. I'm not surprised that the "names" McHenry and Trickey listed didn't turn up

[Kat]

I will list those names which are not readily known to me- ones I don't know why they were called or what they might have testified to.
E. S. Wright
(E?) H. Church
Margaret L. Crapo
Alexander Coggeshall
Catherine Leary
Lizzie Gormley
Fred A. Pickering
Moris Manley
Mary A. Durfee
Arthur Johnson
Frank Cody
Edward Downs
Patrick Connors
John Riley
Thomas Burke
Harris E. Pierce
Thomas J. L. Brown
George L. Douglas
Oliver Durling
Wm. Hacking
Wm. R. Martin
John H. Gallagher
Mary B. Kilroy
Carrie Rogers
Mary B. Dubor (?)
James E. Cunneen
Mrs. Peckham
Mrs. Hall
John F. Golden

--This is what the newspaper printed as intro to the names:
"It will be seen by a perusal of the names that
Precautions Never Taken
before characterized the sitting of the grand jury. Witnesses who had stormed and fumed at every little piece of alleged evidence that would, apparently, tend to show the criminality of the accused, witnesses who became prominent early in the history of the crime by their loud protestations as to the innocence of the prisoner- these people were allowed to give testimony in order that the grand jury could better arrive at a just decision. Such a thing has been very rarely done in the history of crime, but this was not all.

On Friday, Nov. 18th, the jury viewed the premises in this city and then came a most peculiar proceeding. The jury was dismissed on Monday, Nov. 21st., until Thursday, Dec. 1st." etc...
Then "when the jury was reconvened on Thursday, Dec. 1st., Mrs. Churchill, Miss Russell and Mrs. Bowen reappeared. Detective McHenry and wife, Jerry Golden, McHenry's office boy, and a Mrs. Peckham and Mrs. Hall were present.

The first three named gave testimony about the burning of the dress [?], which had been forgotten on their appearance earlier in the month.

Afterwards came the statement about the trio of ladies mentioned wiring the district attorney for permission to come back, and the consent to do so, which explained their presence a second time in Taunton."

Some of these people may be in the back of The Knowlton Papers or in the Witness Statements but we should find out or try to figure out in what context they were called. We would need to check there and the newspapers, Jenning's notes from the Hip-bath collection, Rebello?...anywhere else?

[theebmonique]

OK..here's what I found via Yesterday in Old Fall River:

E. S. Wright (Edward E. ?) - druggist in New Bedford. He along with Wm. Martin, believed that Lizzie had entered their drugstores and attempt to buy prussic acid. He testified before the grand jury.

(E?) H. Church - I found a Charles H. Church who was supposed to testify for the prosecution about prussic acid

Margaret L. Crapo - on Knowlton's list to testify "As to not seeing the prisoner escape." Summoned, but did not testify.

Alexander Coggeshall - owned stables @ 143 Second Street, was summoned, but did not testify.

Catherine Leary - (Kate ?) on Knowlton's list of possible witnesses. Did not testify.

Lizzie Gormley - on Knowlton's list to testify "As to not seeing the prisoner escape." Summoned, but did not testify.

Fred A. Pickering - on Knowlton's list of possible witnesses. Was listed to testify "As to escape." Did not testify.

Moris Manley

Mary A. Durfee - Defense witness. Testified at the trial that she sawa Andrew having an angry argument with a man about 8 months before the murders. She did no know the man nor the nature of the argument, but claimed to hear the man say to Andrew, "You have cheated me and I'll fix you for it." Judge Mason ruled that due to the length of time before the crime, Mary Durfee would not be allowed to describe the exchange before the jury.

Arthur Johnson
Frank Cody

Edward Downs - summoned, but did not testify. He was a youth at the time of the murders.

Patrick Connors - a F.R. police officer, participated in a search of the Borden house on Monday, August 8, 1892. Was present as a witness at the trial, but was not called to testify.

John Riley - a F.R. policeman present at the Borden home the day of the murders. He was present at the Prelim., and summoned to testify at the trial, but did not testify.

Thomas Burke
Harris E. Pierce -

Thomas J. L. Brown - on Knowlton's list of possible witnesses. Was listed to testify "As to escape." Did not testify.
George L. Douglas - testified at the Prelim. And before the grand jury, but not at the trial. He was sitting on the steps of Adelaide Churchill's home on August 4, 1892. Testified that he saw no one enter or leave the Borden house.*

Oliver Durling - was sitting on the steps of the Buffinton house. Testified at the Prelim. And before the grand jury, but not at the trial. Testified that he saw no one enter or leave the Borden house.*

Wm. Hacking - on Knowlton's list to testify "As to escape." Summoned, but not called to testify.*

Wm. R. Martin - testified before the grand jury, but not at the trial. He claimed Lizzie had come to his drugstore in New Bedford to buy prussic acid.

John H. Gallagher
Mary B. Kilroy

Carrie Rogers - on Knowlton's list to testify "As to escape." Testified before the grand jury but not at the trial.

Mary B. Dubor (?)

James E. Cunneen - listed on Knowlton's list of possible witnesses under the heading: "As to not seeing the prisoner escape." Testified a the Prelim., and before the grand jury. Summoned at the trial but did not testify.

Mrs. Peckham - (Annie ?), on Knowlton's list. Summoned, but not called to testify.
Mrs. Hall
John F. Golden

*In some places they were listed as sitting on the steps of the Buffinton house, and in others as on the steps of the Churchill house.



Tracy...

[Kat]

That was a good start. Thanks!
However, Hoffman's book is not dependable.
Also we get the repeat news that witness was called but did not testify.
We need to know what they would have said- especially if it was in Lizzie's favor.
The other thing is: Do we know what they mean about an "escape?"
And Durling and Cuneen did not testify at the Preliminary hearing. I don't know them, but I know they weren't quoted at the prelim.
Hoffman's a start- but I wonder if that same small amt. of info could also be found in The Knowlton Papers?

Thank you for typing all that!

[theebmonique]

Yes, I can look in the Knowlton Papers for more and better info. I guess I looked in the wrong book...sorry. Back to looking...


Tracy

[Harry]

A few of these people are mentioned in the witness statements:

Mrs. Crapo - page 8
Alexander Coggeshell - page 19
Carrie Rogers - 20
James Cuneen - 19
Fred Pickering - 20

There are others with different spellings such as Harris E. Pierce instead of Harry Pearce. Mrs. John Gormley instead of Lizzie Gormley.

The Manley mentioned might be Delia Manley's nephew that was driving the wagon with the flowers that she and Mrs. Hart(?) were looking at when they saw the man leaning against the Borden fence.

There are undoubtedly more as I didn't check that closely. I'm not an early morning person.

Need more coffee!

[Harry]

Here's a few more from the witness statements:

John Riley - 7, 40 He was a police officer.
Thomas Brown - 20
Wm. Hacking - 21
John. F. Golden - 26

Mary Durfee testified at the trial (page 1351, volume II) about seeing Andrew arguing with man on his steps. I believe the timeliness of the incident was ruled as being too old

The papers were not good at getting names or spelling correct.

Could Arthur Johnson be Alfred Johnson, the farm hand at Swansea?

Could Mrs. Peckham be the wife of Charles Peckham who confessed to the Borden murders?

[DWilly]

I'd love to know more about this "an escape" stuff. I never heard of Lizzie trying to get away. Someone slip Lizzie a file in one of those bouquets of flowers she was getting?

[Allen]

I'd love to know more about this "an escape" stuff. I never heard of Lizzie trying to get away. Someone slip Lizzie a file in one of those bouquets of flowers she was getting?

She hid it in that awful pin she loved to wear. It was a tiny file.. ..

[Kat]

Yes, I can look in the Knowlton Papers for more and better info. I guess I looked in the wrong book...sorry. Back to looking...


Tracy

I think the introductory info you provided from Hoffman is probably from The Knowlton Papers.
There might be a bit more in the back Glossary, tho- maybe.
Thanks again for all that!
And thanks to you all who are finding these names and figuring spelling differences, etc.
We may have mitigating witnesses here- the exciting part would be if they were in Lizzie's favor, for a change.

If anyone can figure out the "escape" story let us know?
(There might be a good example of missing info which we never heard...)

[Kat]

Could Mrs. Peckham be the wife of Charles Peckham who confessed to the Borden murders?

--Harry, partial.

She shows up on the all-important date of Dec. 1st, which was the big-deal date, right? Plus she seems *paired* with Mrs. Hall. They either had to go all the way to Taunton, or they were from Taunton?
(How far is that?)

[theebmonique]

So far I haven't found anything much different looking through the Knowlton Papers. I will continue to search however.

Here's my transcription of what was printed in Hoffman's book on the 'escape' thing. IMHO, some of it seems to be specualtive on Hoffman's part.
Pickering, Frederick A, (1849-1906)
Frederick A. Pickering's name appeared on Hosea M. Knowlton's handwritten list of potential witnesses un the heading "As to escape." This probably referred to people in a position at the time of the murders to view the killer leaving the Borden home if the killer was not a resident of the house. The witnesses on Knowlton's list said they saw no one leave the house. Pickering was not called as a witness by the prosecution during the Borden trial.

Other possible witnesses on the 'escape' list, had similiar descriptions in their paragraphs in Hoffman's book. I will continue to look for a better detailed description of "As to escape."...from more reliable sources.


Tracy...

[Harry]

Could Mrs. Peckham be the wife of Charles Peckham who confessed to the Borden murders?

--Harry, partial.

She shows up on the all-important date of Dec. 1st, which was the big-deal date, right? Plus she seems *paired* with Mrs. Hall. They either had to go all the way to Taunton, or they were from Taunton?
(How far is that?)

I've since read that the Mrs. Peckham referred to is not the one married to Charles Peckham. She was from Fall River while Mrs. Charles Peckham was from Westport.

[Kat]

Thanks for the tip on Carrie Rogers in the Witness Statements, Har!

Here's what I've found on

Carrie Rogers
W.S., probably statement taken on or after Sept. 25th, 1892.
Pg. 20:
"Carrie E. Rogers, No. 25 Cherry street. 'Was on Second street at eleven o'clock. Saw nothing strange.'”

Boston Globe, Nov. 17:
"...a sales lady in the Troy dry goods store, a new witness who is said to have novel testimony."
[Same info in the Evening Standard.]

Knowlton Papers Glossary:
"ROGERS, CARRIE E. BROWN 1870 - 1954: born in Fall River, Massachusetts, daughter of George H. and Sophia S. L. (Brown) Rogers. She married Walter Everett Peckham, a dealer in dairy products, in 1898. A member of the Mayflower Descendants, she was ninth in descent from John Alden. She also belonged to the Daughters of the Colonial Wars and the Daughters of the American Revolution. She was a life-long resident of her native city. Employed as a bookkeeper at the time of the Borden murders, she was summoned as a witness, but not called upon to testify."

Also, pg. 185, her name is listed in a summons to appear in New Bedford court but then it is crossed out.

--------
Also checked:
NYTimes-not listed
Providence Journal- not listed
and Evening Standard. (She is in E.S., same info as Boston Globe).

[Kat]

Isn't it odd she became Mrs. Peckham in 1898?

[Kat]

William Hacking:

W.S., 21:
"William L. Hacking, No. 10 Hartwell street. 'Passed the Borden house at about 10.30. Went to A. Riche's, and remained there until 10.55.'”

Boston Globe, Nov 17th:
"...William L. Hacking, George L. Douglass and Oliver Durling, who together were sitting talking on Mrs. Churchill's steps when the terrible deed was done, and who saw no one enter or leave the Borden premises..."

Knowlton Papers:
"WILLIAM L. 1863 - 1939: born in Fall River, Massachusetts, son of HACKING Robert H. and Marion (Harvey) Hacking. Employed as a lineman and, later, a motor inspector, he became a wireman with the Fall River, Massachusetts, firm of Potter and Earle, electrical contractors. Hired in 1905, he remained with the company for over thirty years. He married Miss Mabel Cole Cluny of Fall River. In 1909, he relocated to Somerset, Massachusetts, and resided there until his death. Summoned as a witness, he was not called upon to testify."

Page 191, Wm. Hacking summoned to New Bedford Trial, dated May16th, 1893.

-----
Also checked:
ProJo- no
NYT- no
E.S. same info as Globe

[Kat]

Did Hacking go to "Riches" and then leave there at 10:55 am and then sat on Mrs. Churchill's steps at 11 am?
If not, maybe there is a contradiction here.
Maybe they sat there together before he went to Riches at 10:30?
That would be wrong timing- between murders.
Where was "A. Riches?"
Do we know when these 3 sat there? And I wonder what Mrs. Churchill thought about men congregating on her front steps.
Maybe they were friends with Thomas Boulds/Bowles.

[Harry]

Re Rich - Charles Sawyer testified at the trial (p1468+)

"Q. What was the first that you heard of the trouble, Mr. Sawyer?
A. I heard there was a man stabbed by the name of Borden.
Q. Where were you at that time?
A. I was in Mr. A. E. Rich's shop.
Q. Where is that?
A. It is No. 81 Second street.
Q. Is it near the Borden premises?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. On the same side of the street?
A. No, sir.
Q. Is it on the same side of the street that the Dr. Bowen house is?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And can you remember how many houses are between the Rich building and the Bowen building?
A. There is only one house, I think.
Q. One house: well, anything else, any other space?
A. Well, there is a little office to a stable, and a stable yard.
Q. And that with one dwelling house is all the space between the Bowen house and the Rich shop?
A. Well, there are lots intervening.
Q. House lots, you mean?
A. Yes, sir; gateways, etc."

Later on page 1475:

"Q. Were there any boys in the yard?
A. Yes, sir, lots of them.
Q. Do you know who any of them were?
A. Yes, sir, I knew some that I saw there, but---
Q. I mean at that time did you know any of them by name?
A. Well, one of the Rich boys was around there,---the Rich boys I saw in the yard. Well, there were a great many people in the yard, I could not tell you all."

Sawyer at the Inquest (p136) had this to say about Rich:

"Q. What was the first you saw that attracted your attention with reference to this matter?
A. I was in the machine shop opposite where I live, and a gentleman came in there, a drummer from Providence, and he reported that a man named Borden just above there had been stabbed. ..."

Later on page 139:

"Q. Have you any way of fixing the time when the thing was told you by this Providence man?
A. Not exactly. While I was up in that machine shop, this gentleman came in and reported it, and he told a man there afterwards that he came from Providence that morning, and had landed at the Mellen House. I judged that he came from the Mellen House direct to his store, I judged from that he came on the half past ten o'clock train, although it seemed to me a little earlier than [that]. I thought I was there about eleven or a little before. I might be mistaken, I did not note, or look at the time.
Q. Who was the man?
A. He sells machinist supplies for a firm in Providence. I suppose Mr. Rich could tell that. I have seen him once or twice there, but I dont know who the man was."

I wonder why Mr. Rich wasn't questioned about fixing the time since Sawyer was not certain and also as to the identity of the salesman. It would be interesting to know how the salesman found out about the "stabbing".

[Kat]

That's great stuff Harry! Thanks!
I see "Riches" is now "Rich" which also helps!
Thankfully you have given me a picture from Len's book which shows the street. Here is a cut-out of it- a partial piece of the illustration.
From:
Lizzie Borden Past & Present, Leonard Rebello, Al-Zach Press, Fall River, MA., 1999, page 563. Photo courtesy of Len Rebello.
I've typed in where Augustus E. Rich was located.

[Kat]

John F. Golden

W.S. pg. 26:
"(Trickey) 'The money is ready Mc. and we can have a'--- (I lost this) 'the evidence.'

The above conversation was overheard by John F. Golden, and myself.
The room in which Trickey and McHenry met is on the second floor, and measures 15 feet 8 inches x 15 feet 2 inches. Height of room 8 feet 7 inches...There are three doors in the room one leading to the main hall, one to a small hall, and the other to the cupboard in which Golden and I were secreted." etc.
--partial (Harrington)


"Providence, R. I. Monday October 10, 1892.
Henry G. Trickey of the Boston Globe came in company with E. D. McHenry to the latter's house at 11.30 P. M. In the house at the time were Mrs. McHenry, Jas. B. Carroll, John F. Golden, Dennis Desmond Jr. and Phil. Harrington. The following took place in the dining room which McHenry entered first, Trickey soon following." etc...

Fall River Globe
Sat., Aug. 6, 1892
"THE FUNERAL.

Scenes In and About the Residence
This Forenoon.
At 11 o'clock this morning, the hour set for the funeral, Second street from Borden to Spring street was packed with people, at least 2500 being in the immediate vicinity. Officers Harley, Golden, Chace, Mark Shay, Hyde, Ferguson, Reagan, Welsh, Doherty, Harrington and Devine were kept busy in keeping back the crowds."

Rebello references (103) Fall River Evening News of Aug. 6, a Daniel Golden as a policeman who helped with the crowds around Second street the day of the funeral.

John E. Golden seems to be a police officer, and witness with Harrington to some Trickey/McHenry conversations. I believe the grand jury were also hearing evidence against Trickey during their sitting. There is this DANIEL Golden showing up in the papers, credited with the same duty of crowd-control, as our John Golden...But...Harrington calls him John F. and the Fall River paper seems to call him Daniel.

Knowlton Papers- no
Pro-Jo- no
E.S.- no
Boston Globe- no
Hoffman- no

[Kat]

Look at this Wright character:

"WRIGHT, EDWARD E. 1862 - 1931: son of Asahel and Ellen Wright. He was married to Miss Edith M. Shepherd of New Bedford, Massachusetts. It seems likely that the name 'Wright' appearing on the list of potential witnesses with the notations 'N.B.' and 'buying prussic acid' beside it refers to this New Bedford druggist.

First listed in that city's directory in 1883, he was employed by I. H. Shurtleff, Apothecary. He worked in that capacity until 1889, when he began his own business.

Known as Wright Drug Company from 1891 to 1893, his establishment is last listed as operating in 1907. It was at this establishment that Miss Lizzie A. Borden was alleged to have attempted to buy a quantity of prussic acid while on a visit to New Bedford with her sister."

--I haven't checked the newspapers yet. This "attempt" could have been at any time- not necessarily during the girls recent vacation?
--This sounds like the *prior attempt to purchase* Knowlton referred to at the trial, which was not heard.

[DWilly]

It was at this establishment that Miss Lizzie A. Borden was alleged to have attempted to buy a quantity of prussic acid while on a visit to New Bedford with her sister."

I have a couple of questions:

1. First, was Emma with Lizzie in the drugstore when she may have attempted to buy the prussic acid?

2. I wonder how this New Bedford drugstore clerk was able to recognize Lizzie? I can understand a clerk living in Fall River knowing her but some guy from another town.

3. It seems clear that if Lizzie did attempt to buy it she was turned down. If so, did the guy tell her that she would need a prescription? If he did then she would already know she couldn't buy it so, why try again in Fall River? Why not try to buy another type of poison that didn't need a prescription?

[Kat]

Some good questions- maybe you can find some answers?
It sounds like Emma was with Lizzie in the attempt.
It also says that the man Wright was the store owner- not a clerk.
And the partial quote given (above) was not written by me but a quotation from the Glossary of Names from the back of the Knowlton Papers, just so no oe is confused.

As for discussion's sake the question as to Wright knowing Lizzie and Emma by sight is interesting. I think those girls did get around more than people think, but a drug store owner in New Bedford knowing them might seem a stretch.

[Smudgeman]

Re Rich - Charles Sawyer testified at the trial (p1468+)

"Q. What was the first that you heard of the trouble, Mr. Sawyer?
A. I heard there was a man stabbed by the name of Borden.
Q. Where were you at that time?
A. I was in Mr. A. E. Rich's shop.
Q. Where is that?
A. It is No. 81 Second street.
Q. Is it near the Borden premises?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. On the same side of the street?
A. No, sir.
Q. Is it on the same side of the street that the Dr. Bowen house is?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And can you remember how many houses are between the Rich building and the Bowen building?
A. There is only one house, I think.
Q. One house: well, anything else, any other space?
A. Well, there is a little office to a stable, and a stable yard.
Q. And that with one dwelling house is all the space between the Bowen house and the Rich shop?
A. Well, there are lots intervening.
Q. House lots, you mean?
A. Yes, sir; gateways, etc."

Later on page 1475:

"Q. Were there any boys in the yard?
A. Yes, sir, lots of them.
Q. Do you know who any of them were?
A. Yes, sir, I knew some that I saw there, but---
Q. I mean at that time did you know any of them by name?
A. Well, one of the Rich boys was around there,---the Rich boys I saw in the yard. Well, there were a great many people in the yard, I could not tell you all."

Sawyer at the Inquest (p136) had this to say about Rich:

"Q. What was the first you saw that attracted your attention with reference to this matter?
A. I was in the machine shop opposite where I live, and a gentleman came in there, a drummer from Providence, and he reported that a man named Borden just above there had been stabbed. ..."

Later on page 139:

"Q. Have you any way of fixing the time when the thing was told you by this Providence man?
A. Not exactly. While I was up in that machine shop, this gentleman came in and reported it, and he told a man there afterwards that he came from Providence that morning, and had landed at the Mellen House. I judged that he came from the Mellen House direct to his store, I judged from that he came on the half past ten o'clock train, although it seemed to me a little earlier than [that]. I thought I was there about eleven or a little before. I might be mistaken, I did not note, or look at the time.
Q. Who was the man?
A. He sells machinist supplies for a firm in Providence. I suppose Mr. Rich could tell that. I have seen him once or twice there, but I dont know who the man was."

I wonder why Mr. Rich wasn't questioned about fixing the time since Sawyer was not certain and also as to the identity of the salesman. It would be interesting to know how the salesman found out about the "stabbing".

There were alot of people outside that day, hanging out on other people's stairs, in yards, but NOBODY saw anyone come in or go out of the Borden household. This pretty much eliminates any outsider killing the Borden's in my opinion. Even if it was a professional hit as some would tend to believe, somebody would have seen something! We have people hanging out on Mrs. Churchill steps for God's sake, somebody would have seen SOMETHING?

[Kat]

Some good questions- maybe you can find some answers?
It sounds like Emma was with Lizzie in the attempt.
It also says that the man Wright was the store owner- not a clerk.
And the partial quote given (above) was not written by me but a quotation from the Glossary of Names from the back of the Knowlton Papers, just so no oe is confused.

As for discussion's sake the question as to Wright knowing Lizzie and Emma by sight is interesting. I think those girls did get around more than people think, but a drug store owner in New Bedford knowing them might seem a stretch.

Here is more on Wright.

At the preliminary hearing
Evening Standard
Tuesday, August 30, 1892 Page 2
...
"Mayor Coughlin was present. He sat near Dr. Dolan and the two carried on an uninterrupted conversation which apparently was of considerable interest. His Honor's eyes were twinkling and Dr. Dolan looked exceedingly pleased. They sat in a corner which was further ornamented by T. M. Desmond, Esq., and E. E. Wright of this city.

The only unusual disturbance in court so far was occasioned by the fainting of the wife of Dr. Bowen. She was taken from the room by Deputy Sheriff Wixon and Mayor Coughlin. The news of the severe illness of her mother was the cause."

--"E.E. Wright of this city" must mean New Bedford. Although the prelim was held in Fall River, this account is from the New Bedford Standard.

.....
Thursday, November 17, 1892 Page 1

"...and Edward E. Wright and William R. Martin, New Bedford druggists, who think it was Lizzie Borden who tried to buy hydrocyanic acid of them."

_________


The New York Times, Thursday, August 25, 1892 – 5

"In relation to the poison theory, it was said to-night at the police station that Miss Lizzie Borden has been identified by E.E. Wright of New-Bedford as a person who inquired for poison of him."
____________

Also Checked:
Rebello- not in there
Boston Globe same info as Evening Standard
Pro-Jo- not in there

[DWilly]

Just to give an idea of how easy it was for someone to *think* they saw Lizzie, all you have to do is look in Rebello on page 270 and he writes about an incident that happened after the trial:

" Three days after the verdict, it was reported that Lizzie was on State Street in Boston. Crowds gathered around to see Lizzie. However, it was discovered the lady resembled Lizzie and was a resident of Longwood. Friends of Lizzie Borden were quick to use the incident that Eli Bence was mistaken when he claimed Lizzie tried to buy prussic acid."


I can't remember where I read it but, I recall at least one journalist describing Lizzie as looking pretty much like a lot of women in New England. Lizzie is sort of average looking. Average height, average weight etc. I can imagine how easily it would be to mistake another woman for her. Only Lizzie's eyes might stand out. I think it was Bence that said that it was something about her eyes that is what caused him to remember her.

[Kat]

I guess we would know more if Wright was allowed to testify.

It's also interesting that he identified her on Aug. 25th and was in the audience at the preliminary hearing.

[Haulover]

*** Only Lizzie's eyes might stand out. I think it was Bence that said that it was something about her eyes that is what caused him to remember her.***

this is why i've always tended to believe bence -- for that one reason. it sounds like memory to me -- memory of a distinct impression. if not -- if fabricated for whatever reason -- exactly how does he go about making up something like this?

from Inquest, pg 162
Bence (stated somewhere between aug 9th and 11th):

Q. How did you judge?
A. I judged both from seeing her before on the street, and also by a peculiar expression around the eyes, which I noticed at the time, and noticed then.

______________________

i know everyone doesn't think the way i do on this -- but my rule of thumb is that when a witness has memory of a specific detail -- give it a high priority. this is not like "i saw a woman that looked like her that day, i've seen her around." that wouldn't be much good -- but that is not what bence's testimony is.

BTW, this is something i've always believed just by my best judgment of the available evidence -- though i've changed plenty of other opinions. for example, that lizzie herself actually picked up an axe and then behaved the way she did.

i know the standard question is WHY would lizzie do this dumb thing? my most recent speculation on this is to link it with her visit to alice wednesday night. lizzie talks of forebodings and depression, etc. give lizzie the benefit of the doubt for a minute and consider that she was even more desperate than we tend to think -- in that case, it starts to make sense that lizzie was looking for a quick effective method of suicide. i mean, this turns things around in the sense that lizzie indeed wanted to kill -- herself, with poison, not someone else with an axe. Why? because of this horrible situation proven by the events of the 4th -- we don't know what's going on. but i'm saying that this trip to the pharmacy makes sense if lizzie has reason to anticipate disaster so shattering she would rather take herself out of the world. in this context, you see, she does not care about having to explain her purchase or account for herself during axe murders.

but here's the question: If Bence is absolutely correct that it was lizzie looking for poison -- how can it be explained?

anyway, to sum it up in a statement -- lizzie in a suicidal meltdown mode due to her certain dread of disaster -- is actually believable to me. other options -- that lizzie went out of her mind thursday, that she screwed up like she screwed up so much verbally other times....these not as believable.

well, i forget where most of the bence/poison stuff was placed before -- but i did not want to get entangled in "pearson on poison" stuff. i'm looking at something now for an article where radin is badly wrong about pearson-on-poison. i'm looking at actual testimony.

[Allen]

well, i forget where most of the bence/poison stuff was placed before -- but i did not want to get entangled in "pearson on poison" stuff. i'm looking at something now for an article where radin is badly wrong about pearson-on-poison. i'm looking at actual testimony.

In the Pearson and Prussic Acid thread, I was not citing any of Pearson's personal beliefs and theories on the attempting buying of the Prussic Acid. I don't want, or mean, to get that whole ball rolling again I just wanted to state that.

I was citing the opinion expressed by Professor John Wigmore who wrote an article forThe American Law Review. The other letter was written by Judge Charles C. Davis of the Third District Court. Judge Davis's letter was sent with the date of December 23, 1893 to the Boston Advertiser. I think anybody who is interested in the opinions of the time about the attempted buying of the prussic acid should read these letters.

These were opinins that were written after the trial but still close in date. I was simply using Pearson's book as a source for these letters. I think they show a fascinating incite, and I would urge anyone interested in that subject to read them.

"Wigmore is especially noted for his monumental work usually known as Treatise on Evidence (4 vol., 1904; 3d ed., 10 vol., 1940; suppl. 1964). This work is at the same time a lawyer's manual of practice and an incisive and highly critical survey of the law of evidence. His shorter works on evidence include books usually cited as The Code of Evidence (3d ed. 1942) and Students' Textbook of Evidence (1935). Out of Wigmore's interest in comparative law came his Panorama of the World's Legal Systems (3 vol., 1928; repr., 3 vol. in 1, 1936). "

http://reference.allrefer.com/encyclope ... gmore.html

http://www.law.pitt.edu/hibbitts/wigspot.htm

[Allen]

As for why would Lizzie try to buy poison? Lately, I think maybe it's possible she could've been contemplating suicide, but then again Lizzie was such a strong person and she had such a strong character I can't bring myself to believe this was so. I try an imagine her being in that frame of mind and I just cannot do it.

[Allen]

my computer is playing tricks on me, it keeps posting things twice...

[Allen]

I've heard the opinion expressed that the plan was to kill herself after killing her parents, a murder suicide scenario. But that doesn't make any sense to me. Why kill her parents and then herself? Does anybody else think this is a viable scenario? If so maybe they could clarify it a little more for me.

[DWilly]

I've heard the opinion expressed that the plan was to kill herself after killing her parents, a murder suicide scenario. But that doesn't make any sense to me. Why kill her parents and then herself? Does anybody else think this is a viable scenario? If so maybe they could clarify it a little more for me.

I just can't picture Lizzie trying to commit suicide. She was too strong willed for that. This was a woman who while Knowlton hammered away at her during the inquest asking questions would change her story and not blink an eye when he confronted her on it. Lizzie was able to sit in a jail cell for almost a year without giving in. Lizzie may have had her moments of depression but I don't see her as wanting to kill herself. To me, she wanted her own life. She wanted to live and live well on her terms.

[theebmonique]

I am trying to get the Davis and Wigmore opinions read. Maybe I can finish them today.


Tracy...

[Kat]

Does anyone have anything more to add to the info we've collected? I'm finding out about people of whom I was not too aware.
I'm sorry to not have contributed more here on this topic lately, but I've been working a lot on another project at the moment.

If someone has newspaper info we can use that too.

[john]

I think you'll be happy now Kat - I'm running away with Snokkums who is a direct descendent of six of the Grand Jury members.
Their names are-
Elmer Wamaloo
Christian Laetner
Sly Stone
Kat Koorey
Dog Vomitorpoop
Sarah Teasdale
Leslie Moorley
Low Highway
and
Hank Hank (who went on to become a country western singer)
and their leader was named Stefani but she was too cute to be recognized