Why didn't Lizzie scream bloody murder?

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:27 am

I was reading thru some old posts the other day and came across one that got me think. It was called Screaming Bloody murder. It reminded me of a show I watched on the manson women. When the maid walked in to the Tate residence and saw the bodies, she ran out screaming on the top of her lungs.

Lizzie found her fathers body and she was real calm and telling the maid, "Some one has killed father."

Why wasn't she screaming bloody murder? Her father was hacked up pretty bad, and she real calm.

Michael · Post by **Michael** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 1:12 pm

Good question. I believe people have very unique responses to terrifying situations (like death). Lizzie may have been in shock. Of course, I believe Lizzie committed the murders, so I also think Lizzie's relative calm manner was very well calculated, on her part.[/quote]

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:11 pm

Hi Michael!
I have used part of your signature line for the title of a Hatchet article I wrote- actually in the issue that is the free download at the LABVM/L website!
http://www.hatchetonline.com/HatchetOnline/index.htm

As for Lizzie herself, she claims not to have said *Someone has killed father.*
Also, I think it is not certain how Lizzie really reacted that morning. She did end up on some nerve balm after all.
If you wanted to know how the other people perceived her state of mind, you might read the testimony of those surrounding her that day: Bridget (through to the trial because we don't have her inquest testimony), Alice Russell, Mrs. Dr. Bowen, Dr. Bowen, even Emma.

affie4u · Post by **affie4u** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:08 pm

I guess people react differently when they see a dead body & andrew body was not a natural death. It might of been a big shock to her to see what he looked like. Maybe she was scared to scream -what if a killer was still in the house & came after her. I guess only Lizzie knows the anser to this question & she took it with her to her grave.

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:44 am

I just had the thought, Lizzie being guilty in my eyes, that the haughty Miss Borden might've simply thought "I'll say it, they'll believe it - I'm a Borden, dammit!"

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:00 pm

From page 5 of the witness statements, the day of the murders:

During this conversation with Lizzie, I cautioned her about what she might say at the present time. I said owing to the atrociousness of the crime, perhaps you are not in a mental condition to give as clear a statement of the facts as you will be tomorrow; and also by that time you may be able to tell more about the man who wished to hire the store. You may recollect of having heard his name, or of seeing him, and thereby be enabled to give a description of him, or may recollect of something said about him by your father; so I say it may be better for you not to submit to an interview until tomorrow, when you may be better able to recite what you know of the circumstances.” To this she replied “no, I think I can tell you all I know now, just as well as at any other time.”

It doesn't sound as though Lizzie was overly stressed at that moment, but, as Kat mentioned, she needed morphine the following day for her nerves.

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:25 pm

Or it was pressed upon her, as the thing to do.

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:10 pm

"I'll say it, they'll believe it - I'm a Borden, dammit!"

It just crossed my mind - might it be argued (with sound evidence - albeit circumstantial) that in some ways that mindset characterized Lizzie Borden for the final 35 years of her life? She went, did, and had as she pleased.

Reminds me somewhat of Scott Peterson.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:17 am

Just to be clear- I figure Lizzie did take the bromo caffeine and maybe one dose of the morphine. Why it was doubled I don't know. As for whether Lizzie continued to take morphine, I think there is no proof.
Lizzie supposedly broke down finally the evening of her arrest, in the room she was waiting in on the last day of the inquest when she was formally arrested.
About this time I picture her needing a dose of something, until she went to Taunton Friday.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:36 am

Lizzie was willing to be interviewed by police immediately after the murders, and she expressed a willingness to go with the authorities the Saturday following the murders when she was told that she was under suspicion. Both times she seemed to be displaying calmness in the face of adversity. If she finally broke down as a result of being formally arrested, it might seem a bit inconsistent. It could be argued that it was a cumulative effect of all the preceding events, or maybe she just needed the bullet to be on it's way down the barrel before she figured out she might be shot.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:55 pm

Apparently Friday night was some turning point for Lizzie because Dr. Bowen was called for many times and finally refused to go over again.
He may have sent morphine to get her out of his hair.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:28 pm

He may have prescribed morphine for Lizzie so he could get some sleep!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:53 pm

See Fall River Globe of Saturday, Aug. 6th, recounting Lizzie's and Dr. Bowen's Friday night:

Miss Lizzie Borden’s actions during the day created much comment in the immediate neighborhood of the house. While Miss Emma was about the house with saddened face assisting the police in the identification of the many callers who asked to offer sympathy, Miss Lizzie persistently remained in her room and did not mingle with the rest of the household.

During the day she was taken ill with fainting spells.

It was given out again about 7 o’clock that Lizzie Borden was again attacked with prostration and fainting fits.

Dr. Bowen made three visits between 6 o’clock and 8 o’clock and carried in several medicine vials for her.

The doctor stated that Lizzie’s illness was of no particular consequence, only another physical prostration of an over-worked mentality.

Still her repeated attacks are mysterious.
At 8:40 p.m. J. V. Morse went over to Dr. Bowen’s to have him make another visit, but he did not think the patient demanded his attendance and would not come.

Lizzie is being attended by her sister Emma and Miss Russell, and is constantly being watched for symptoms of a relapse of her prostration or any other occurrence.

(Harry typed this)

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:57 pm

What is the current medical term for prostration and fainting fits? Apparently Dr. Bowen didn't think it was life threatening. I can see why he might have doubled the dose of morphine, he wanted to put her out of his misery.

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:00 pm

Numbness and an appearance of calmness are often the first reactions of a person who has experienced a disaster or loss. Confusion and anxiety often follow.

In light of all the disaster-preparedness seminars some of us have gone through post 9/11, post-Katrina, Lizzie's reactions don't seem that unusual.

Behavior has to be judged again the person's normal behavior. Lizzie came out of a reseved New England background which valued austeritiy and decorum. Screaming was for the Irish maid, not the lady from an old New England family. This is similar to the idea of the British "stiff upper lip" in the face of disaster. Emotions were kept inside and not displayed to others.

Kat, thanks for the newspaper article about Lizzie's fainting spells. The body has its own way to show emotional stress when the person is not outwardly demonstrative.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:47 am

The physical manifestation of fainting spells as the result of emotional stress taking place the following day and evening might indicate an unusual degree of self-control. According to the newspaper article, Lizzie remained in her room, presumably to avoid breaking down in front of callers offering their sympathy. Emma was left to deal with the callers, apparently without fear of breaking down emotionally.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:56 am

Different people react differently to a crime scene. The maid (Tate murders) came upon several bloody bodies and reacted in a normal manner. Lizzie came upon her dad knowing, in my opinion, that he was already dead so for her there wasn't much "shock value." That's my guess anyway.

-1bigsteve (o:

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:12 am

You're welcome, Cynthia.
I wrote about this in my *Emma Article* called "Looking For Emma", Hatchet, Feb/March 2006. That's why I remembered Dr. Bowen's repeated visits and then he would no longer come. I thought it was very interesting peek into the Friday night at the Borden murder house. The next day would be the funeral, and I felt that that upcoming event might have been overly stressful- the realization would have been settling in.
Also, isn't it possible that a crutch-type medication sometimes backfire and removes the inhibition and cause a not overly-demonstrative person to crack more easily?

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:11 am

Having the bodies in the house would be like living at the funeral home temporarily, there was no escape from the reality. I don't know if that would be more or less stressful if it was the custom at the time because there would be nothing to compare it to. The more or less public funeral the next day, Saturday, might have been something to dread, from the standpoint of facing the public, even if just to a small degree.

My guess is that to a guilty person, using a powerful sedative was a gamble if it removed inhibitions. An innocent person had nothing to lose. Maybe Lizzie needed to break down, and fighting that normal response was the reason for her distress. Under those circumstances, the morphine was a good choice because Lizzie was better off with either outcome, either grief or la-la land. I expect Dr. Bowen didn't think Lizzie had anything to hide at that time, so breaking down was not anything incriminating.

Another consideration is that Emma was home then. Lizzie could afford to break down with her sister in charge. Still, we're talking about the next day and evening which is a bit removed from the event and no concern over Emma's reaction.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:45 pm

I have always found it unusual that Lizzie did not head straight for the front door after she found her father dead on the sofa. It is only 10 steps away and on a busy street she could have hailed help instantly. To yell upstairs to Bridget announced her presence to a potential hidden killer.Might as well ring the dinner bell and say "Here I am- come get me too"- Not to mention- how did she know Bridget herself was not also killed? Not to have made an effort to get out of the house, to me seems highly suspect. I would have at the least stood outside on the step until help was summoned, within view of help in case the murderer was still nearby. It was always peculiar to me that Lizzie never tried to summon the police also. I can possibly see sending for Bowen- but in no way does Alice seem a likely candidate at a time like that. Of course I believe Alice was "prepped" the night before, and that is why she was sent for, to re-enforce the story.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:52 pm

I agree with you Shelley on this. I feel Lixxie's big mistake was in not "rushing out the door" when she "found" her father's body. She should have bolted out that door and got out into the street and made a scene. For all she knew Bridget could have been the killer so why would Lizzie had called upstairs for her? When finding a butchard body in a house you would think that a person's "normal" response would be to get out of the house right away, not knowing if a killer was still lurking in the rooms somewhere. I think Lizzie's "cool demeaner" upon finding her father's body was the biggest piece of evidence against her.

-1bigsteve (o:

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:48 pm

Lizzie seemed to know an awful lot about the crime scene from early on.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:52 am

Well, since Lizzie was acquitted then she didn't really make any mistakes . . .
But if we consider 10 months in jail and under suspicion the result of a *mistake* then I would think it came more from burning a dress with Alice as witness.

That's interesting what you wrote Yooper-about Lizzie needing to break down after showing so much control and Dr. Bowen maybe precipitating that event, with no awareness of her as a suspect at the time.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:02 pm

She also says she did not enter the sitting room. only looked in from the threshhold in the diningroom-so that tells me she knew Andrew was good and dead from just one look at that awful eye and head wounds. Which makes me wonder- why did she need a doctor then? She tells Addie Churchill and Bridget Andrew is killed or words to that effect-one would think she would want the police ASAP! If she had any suspicion Andrew was still alive, one would think she would have run to his side, told him help was coming, check his breathing- something! No, however you slice it, her behavior was just plain ODD.

I usually ask guests on tour '"Now what would you do" when I get to the part of Lizzie coming in and finding her father- and MOST of them promptly reply, go to the front door and yell for help, send for the police, and GET OUT of the house- or a combination of all the above. I think more than a few of the policemen on the job that day had a hard time buying Lizzie's actions, statements and demeanor.

Those poor cops always come in for a real raking over the coals but a few put their fingers on some key points that very first afternoon.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:13 am

I agree, Lizzie spent far too much time in the house without concern for her personal safety. Asking someone to call the police might have been taken as a concern for self-preservation, but that didn't happen. She could not help her father from the back hallway, so I doubt that she thought he was still alive, regardless of what she might have said. She wasn't protecting anyone from further harm, only exposing herself to possible harm by remaining in the house.

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:31 am

I agree that it is strange Lizzie stayed in the house. I would probably be so scared I would probably just have run out of the house not stayed in the back hall. You would think that she would have been really scared & probably shaking & so in shock she wouldn't be able to talk so calmly. Back then they didn't have tv, or movies like now that show alot of gore. They probably never saw anything like that, so seeing it for the first time and it being her father I'm surprised she didn't pass out. How could she see that in all it's gory horror, not pass out: then at trial see the skulls & swoon?

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:19 am

I get the feeling that Lizzie had gone out to the barn so the deed could be done then she re-entered the house and after taking a look she called for Bridget. It does not strike me that Lizzie "just stumbled upon" her father's body but rather knew it was going to be there. Lizzie's action don't jive with a woman finding her father's hacked up dead body.

-1bigsteve (o:

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:06 am

I do believe Lizzie was guilty. But, on the off chance she was innocent, I can understand somewhat her lack of reaction to the scene. Whenever I am given terrible news I sort of shut down and don't react for several hours or even days later. When my Dad died it took me several months. I went through his funeral without much reaction, but a few months later when I went to the wake of an sweet older man I knew through my job I totally lost it in the funeral home and had to be driven home because I couldn't drive myself. The man's family didn't know me from Adam so I bet they thought I was nuts.

As for Alice being called for first by Lizzie, I hadn't really thought about that much before now. It certainly does seem like she was setting the scene the night before if the first person she asks for is Alice to come over right after the murders. Why, of all the people in town, including the police, would she ask for Alice first, unless there was some preconceived scheme to use her in some way?

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:33 am

People react differently to death. When I heard that a friend of mine had breast cancer I felt like I was dying on the inside. I looked normal on the outside but I couldn't eat or sleep, I couldn't breathe, my heart beat was erratic and as I was writing her a get-well card my mind went blank for about five minutes. I could not remember her address, what she looked like, her last name or what she did for a living. A map of north Africa was floating through my mind and I was trying to figure out which area she lived in even though she lives in California. When my mom died it was like it happened to someone else's mother, probably because I saw her death coming and had braced myself for it.

Lizzie may have gone through something simular. Her brain may have got stuck in the wrong gear and couldn't get going in a "reasonable" manner. It's a hard situation to judge. People react differently.

-1bigsteve (o:

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:39 am

I think Lizzie's seemingly dispassionate behavior is as remarkable now as it was then. Lizzie seemed to be reacting to effect rather than cause. She reacted to her father's injuries rather than what caused them. At no time did she leave the house or call the police, but she had the presence of mind to call for help. She called for Bridget, Dr. Bowen, Alice Russell, and Adelaide Churchill. It apparently wasn't shock which prevented calling the police. She never returned to Andrew after "discovering" him, so she wasn't overly concerned for his welfare. It never occurred to her that Abby might be interested in her "discovery". She didn't display a tendency to either fight or flight, there was no "gut instinct" present. The only conclusion I can reach is that Lizzie was not sufficiently moved by the events to induce an adrenaline rush. Her reactions were more like those of a hardened police detective, or perhaps a murderer.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:45 am

Angel @ Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:06 am wrote:I do believe Lizzie was guilty. But, on the off chance she was innocent, I can understand somewhat her lack of reaction to the scene. Whenever I am given terrible news I sort of shut down and don't react for several hours or even days later. When my Dad died it took me several months. I went through his funeral without much reaction, but a few months later when I went to the wake of an sweet older man I knew through my job I totally lost it in the funeral home and had to be driven home because I couldn't drive myself. The man's family didn't know me from Adam so I bet they thought I was nuts.

As for Alice being called for first by Lizzie, I hadn't really thought about that much before now. It certainly does seem like she was setting the scene the night before if the first person she asks for is Alice to come over right after the murders. Why, of all the people in town, including the police, would she ask for Alice first, unless there was some preconceived scheme to use her in some way?

There is a difference between being given the news and discovering the news. Emma was given the news, as was John Morse. There is a degree of removal there which the discoverer does not have.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:01 pm

Yooper @ Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:39 am wrote: Her reactions were more like those of a hardened police detective, or perhaps a murderer.

I agree. Murder by numbers: 1. Do the deed, 2. wash up and hide weapon or change clothing, whatever was required etc. 3. give alarm 4. send for help, 5. position oneself where one can see the street and response to the alarm, 6. Compose oneself and wait for the help to arrive, 7. Calmly take charge of the response, give directives, be willing to assist authorities, 8. Remove oneself from the scene at the earliest opportunity and make every effort to control access by the police, citing illness, medications, etc. 9. Make the most of clergy and doctor present to re-enforce your "exile" whilst thinking through the response to police questions and giving a statement, get legal assistance ASAP. 10. Be sure all traces which might connect yourself in any way are well disposed of or removed, hidden, cleaned, etc. when the coast is clear.

The only unforeseen factor in this equation was Addie Churchill who, due to her nosiness, was on the scene unexpectedly. No wonder she "saw something" which she would not reveal if they "tore my tongue out".

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:48 pm

Yes, that has always piqued my curiosity. We'll never know.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:15 am

I can't quite imagine being a Victorian miss and then asking myself what would I do?
I think they thought differently back then.
I also can't know that a female of the day would automatically think of the police. Since Bowen was a doctor and a family friend, I might call him- or call out for him, I suppose.

Surrounding myself with females might be comforting. I just don't know how much Lizzie actually went thru.
She does say she did not know Andrew was dead. Dr. Bowen said he checked Andrew to be sure and he was a doctor.

There's some good points made here tho by you guys.

BTW: Lizzie was not in the courtroom when the skull was exposed (the swoon was after the attorney's opening remarks), and the statement attributed to Mrs. Churchill was made by McHenry, who cannot be trusted, on the 28th (of whatever month?) - Witness Statements, pg 46, just FYI.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:51 am

[quote="Kat @ Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:15 am"]I can't quite imagine being a Victorian miss and then asking myself what would I do?
I think they thought differently back then.
I also can't know that a female of the day would automatically think of the police. Since Bowen was a doctor and a family friend, I might call him- or call out for him, I suppose.

Oh that is a good point about the difference in mindset and behavior 1892 and 2007. Very true also that most people did not enjoy police involvement if it could be avoided. Still, she told Mrs. Churchill her father was killed didn't she? The "fairer sex and fragile vessel" of Victorian womanhood also looked to a man, or were expected to do so, in matters of emergency, which is why I cannot understand why she did not call out from the front door -manhood abounded on all corners from the Boston Express to the livery stable. I can also understand calling for Dr. Bowen-although he may have been wanted as a comfort and friend and the "duty male" rather than medical aid as it seems very clear to me Lizzie KNEW her father was dead. You just don't leave a loved one alone to die if you think there might be life still present. The fact that Lizzie makes a point of saying she did not enter the sitting room tells me a lot. I would fly to the side of a loved one, bloody or not- and try to see if there was any hope. She knew he was dead- and for all of her comments after- she may not have loved her father at all. Too much is made of that little gold ring in my book.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:55 am

The point of the choices having a different priority in 1892 is valid, once we get to the point of thinking about choices. I just find it difficult to imagine anyone finding their father butchered and immediately wondering whether or not to involve the police. If Lizzie was surprised by finding Andrew as he was, she should have experienced an adrenaline reaction, and conscious thought would not necessarily be an option. Lizzie's distress the following day, insomnia and jittery nerves, sounds like someone coming down from an adrenaline rush, but that is too far removed in time. If Lizzie was not surprised or stressed by finding Andrew, she may have gotten to making choices sooner, perhaps immediately. Given the magnitude of the situation, I don't think anyone would likely consider avoiding the police, especially when they supposedly have no good reason to believe that the murderer has left the premises. Lizzie invited Mrs. Churchill over not knowing where the murderer was. Or, maybe she did know.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:25 am

Lizzie's behavior to me is totally unexplainable unless she knew her father was dead..

If she thought he was only injured to most people there would have been only two choices. One, rush to her father's side. Two, leave the house and scream for help. She did neither.

She calls for Bridget but doesn't allow her to go into the room. She has enough awareness to send Bridget for help so she's not totally confused. Why send Bridget if she (Lizzie) was not going to remain by her father's side?

Then there is the famous line “O, Mrs. Churchill, do come over; somebody has killed father.” That's pretty definite. If she never went into the room and sent Bridget for help to Dr. Bowen, and remained by the screen door, when did she discover that her father was dead?

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:28 am

When did she discover her father was dead? Oh probably about the same time she heard Abby come in!

Amazing how much that gal got accomplished in 15 minutes! Wish she would come help me with my housecleaning and holiday shopping. For someone who could not do "anything in a minute" she accomplished plenty on that morning!

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:36 am

Being unable to do anything in a minute might imply that it couldn't possibly take her anywhere near that long to do anything!

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:42 am

Harry's post reminded me that Lizzie pointedly prevented Bridget from looking at Andrew. Did Lizzie want Bridget to believe that Andrew was still alive in order to get her across the street? Bridget might have reacted to Andrew in an unpredictable manner. She might have recognized that he was dead and gone for the police on her own.

Lizzie going for Dr. Bowen on her own would have gotten help sooner if time was of the essence and it would have gotten her out of the house. By doing so, she ran the risk of Bridget discovering Andrew and reacting unpredictably.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:06 pm

I think Lizzie needed for Bridget to get right out of the house and not linger to observe anything. Lizzie may still have had a little unfinished business to take care of. It was better to have Abby discovered as soon as possible too to connect the crimes closer together. She was probably thinking Bowen would be home, would rush right over and then see Andrew and ask where Abby was. Lizzie could have said tha Abby was upstairs sewing last she knew and then- bang- !- things would have run more smoothly.Bowen would have found Abby and then summoned the police. I bet Addie Churchill's prying and Bowen's being gone put a kink in the action. Maybe his usual routine was to get home about 11 for lunch. When Bowen was missing in action, there must have been a worried minute and Alice (carefully prepped for disaster the night before) was an inspired fill-in.

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:52 pm

Isn't it strange that Lizzie did not want Bridget to see Andrew, but had no problem having her look for Abby? Maybe she was not quite sure Andrew was "completely" dead, but she knew Abby had been upstairs long enough to be most sincerely dead. I think she wanted to get Bridget out of the house for some time alone, however how small the time frame was. What period of time was Dr. Bowen missing?

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:24 pm

That is a really good point, how she wouldn't let Bridget look at Andrew and also sent her out of the house. That would give her enough time to hide anything she didn't want seen.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:13 pm

Lizzie had control over the time she called up to Bridget. If she had evidence to put away she could have done so before calling up to Bridget. Another few moments would not have made that much difference.

Of course, she would have no way of knowing when Morse would return so she would have to take that into account.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:29 pm

One scenario I haven't given much thought to is whether Bridget was involved. All we have is Lizzie's and Bridget's word for what took place that morning. If Bridget was involved, there was not necessarily much of a time crunch. She didn't need to be an active participant, only willing to help after the fact, and possibly unaware of Abby's murder. Andrew might have been murdered shortly after arriving home and the rest of the time used for cleanup.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:31 am

Smudgeman @ Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:52 pm wrote:What period of time was Dr. Bowen missing?

For a *probable* sequence of events, please see:

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... Events.htm

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:39 am

Shelley @ Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:06 pm wrote:I think Lizzie needed for Bridget to get right out of the house and not linger to observe anything. Lizzie may still have had a little unfinished business to take care of. It was better to have Abby discovered as soon as possible too to connect the crimes closer together. She was probably thinking Bowen would be home, would rush right over and then see Andrew and ask where Abby was. Lizzie could have said tha Abby was upstairs sewing last she knew and then- bang- !- things would have run more smoothly.Bowen would have found Abby and then summoned the police. I bet Addie Churchill's prying and Bowen's being gone put a kink in the action. Maybe his usual routine was to get home about 11 for lunch. When Bowen was missing in action, there must have been a worried minute and Alice (carefully prepped for disaster the night before) was an inspired fill-in.

That's very good, Shelley, Lizzie wanted or needed Abby to be found immediately. There was a definite push to have her found by Lizzie. Something caused Adelaide and Bridget to walk right past the parlor on their way to the room where Abby lay. They found her on the very first attempt for some reason. For some reason they didn't look in the parlor, they didn't even peek! However, Mrs. Churchill felt the need to peek beneath the bed while ascending the stairs. For some reason, she expected to find Abby there. This was not a random search, it was directed.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:02 am

The thing that really boggles my mind is that no one thought of the fact that the murderer might still be in the house. They all just barged in with no thought to attics, basements, parlors or closets hiding some dangerous lunatic. If I was invited into a house with the comment that someone "just killed father" I would think twice about going in. In fact, if I was confronted with that, I would first ask more information, like how, where, etc., and when I found out I would be dragging Lizzie away from the house, instead of wandering into the sitting room and possibly danger.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:22 am

Directed- oh yes! Lizzie said "I thought I heard her come in". Bridget had already been up back to fetch a sheet, using the key to get into the Borden's bedroom. Bridget had also been in her room on the third floor so Bridget KNEW 1. Abby was not "up back" and 2. Abby was not anywhere on the third floor 3. Abby had to be "up front" or in the cellar by process of elimination.

Bridget's reluctance to go up front made good sense to me. The front upstairs had not yet been searched and she was scared. Addie volunteered to go with her because I think frankly Addie was one of those women who liked to be involved in things. It is also possible that Addie liked Abby and was genuinely worried for her. Of course that whole business of Abby "coming in" simply does not fit Lizzie's time line at all as she gave it. Nor does it make much sense that Abby waltzed in and went upstairs-why would she? For what purpose? Not to mention the corpse on the sofa . I seem to recall Abby's key was also missing that week- so she could not have unlocked the front door anyway.

It must have caused a gulp when Bridget blathered on about going to Mrs. Whitehead's to get Abby. Lizzie realized then that her story about the note coming to the house for Abby and Abby going out had registered to Bridget as Abby going to see Mrs. Whitehead and she had to undo that scenario. Immediately after Bridget comes out with this, Lizzie responds with "I thought I heard her come in". I am also not positive if the parlor was locked or not that day. Does anyone know for sure?

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:45 am

Lizzie also thought she heard Abby return according to Mrs. Churchill in a separate statement to her as she arrived. According to the Witness Statements and the Inquest, Lizzie had no opportunity to hear either Abby returning or an intruder leaving by her own admission. The front door was found completely locked and bolted by officer Allen when he arrived. In the Witness Statements, Mrs. Churchill said that Lizzie thought she needed to go to the cemetery herself. Lizzie told her this when Mrs. Churchill returned from her attempt to summon a doctor. Abby had not been found at that moment, and Andrew had not yet been pronounced dead. Lizzie knew good and well Abby was dead and she knew right where she could be found.