The infamous note
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Kat
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The getting of the sheets came first, yes. But there are other upstairs besides the front upstairs. Since Lizzie would like people to look in Mrs. Borden's room- that might send people to other places up the back stairs. There was a small room off Mrs. Borden's room that is equivalent to the bathroom area in the house now. Then there was a closet in that bedroom and a room where the desk was- which itself was considered Abbie's room. Now I think that room was where the sheets were retrieved- but these 2 ladies did not search for a body up there. And they did not search for a body in the attics. Sending someone to Mrs. Borden's room to look, might have meant anything, or nothing.
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Yooper
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Lizzie controlled the search. She rejected Bridget's offer to go to Whitehead's to look for Abby. We can imply that if they went up the wrong stairway, she would further clarify where she wanted them to go. As far as upstairs maybes are concerned, maybe she meant the barn loft?
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Yooper
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Yooper
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Under the circumstance of taking Lizzie's Inquest testimony as credible, in which she said she did not tell anyone she thought Abby had returned, in fact, she thought Abby was out, telling people to look upstairs for Abby as they came to her aid is completely absurd. Sending someone to Mrs. Borden's room to look didn't mean anything or nothing, it meant everything! And that's what Lizzie said!Kat @ Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:48 pm wrote:The getting of the sheets came first, yes. But there are other upstairs besides the front upstairs. Since Lizzie would like people to look in Mrs. Borden's room- that might send people to other places up the back stairs. There was a small room off Mrs. Borden's room that is equivalent to the bathroom area in the house now. Then there was a closet in that bedroom and a room where the desk was- which itself was considered Abbie's room. Now I think that room was where the sheets were retrieved- but these 2 ladies did not search for a body up there. And they did not search for a body in the attics. Sending someone to Mrs. Borden's room to look, might have meant anything, or nothing.
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Shelley
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Bridget had come from her room on the third floor and she knew Abby was not there. She had gotten the key and unlocked the Borden's bedroom to get the two sheets and Mrs. Borden was not in that room then. So by default, when "look upstairs" was suggested- there remained ONLY one upstairs room which Abby had access to left- the guest room. Lizzie's room was kept locked so it had to be the front bedroom, accessible only by the front staircase which is exactly the staircase Addie and Bridget head for.
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Yooper
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This is the Inquest testimony being referred to:
Lizzie, Inquest, Page 65 (22):
Q. When you found your father dead you supposed your mother had gone?
A. I did not know. I said to the people who came in "I don't know whether Mrs. Borden is out or in; I wish you would see if she is in her room."
Q. You supposed she was out at the time?
A. I understood so; I did not suppose anything about it.
Q. Did she tell you where she was going?
A. No sir.
Q. Did she tell you who the note was from?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you ever see the note?
A. No sir.
Q. Do you know where it is now?
A. No sir.
Q. She said she was going out that morning?
A. Yes sir.
Lizzie, Inquest, Page 78 (35)
Q. Did you make any search for your mother?
A. No, sir.
Q. Why not?
A. I thought she was out of the house; I thought she had gone out. I called Maggie to go to Dr. Bowen's. When they came I said, "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is." I thought she had gone out.
Q. Did you tell Maggie you thought your mother had come in?
A. No, sir.
Q. That you thought you heard her come in?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you say to anybody that you thought she was killed up stairs?
A. No, sir.
Q. To anybody?
A. No, sir.
Q. You made no effort to find your mother at all?
A. No, sir.
If Lizzie sent anyone to search for Abby inside the house, she must believe she is there, that she has returned, which supports the statements by Bridget and Mrs. Churchill which indicate that Lizzie thought Abby had returned, she heard her come in.
From the other perspective, if Lizzie thought Abby was out, she had no reason to search for her in the house. She had no reason to prevent Bridget from searching at Whitehead's or anywhere else for her. Abby was out, and Lizzie did not know where.
Lizzie, Inquest, Page 65 (22):
Q. When you found your father dead you supposed your mother had gone?
A. I did not know. I said to the people who came in "I don't know whether Mrs. Borden is out or in; I wish you would see if she is in her room."
Q. You supposed she was out at the time?
A. I understood so; I did not suppose anything about it.
Q. Did she tell you where she was going?
A. No sir.
Q. Did she tell you who the note was from?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you ever see the note?
A. No sir.
Q. Do you know where it is now?
A. No sir.
Q. She said she was going out that morning?
A. Yes sir.
Lizzie, Inquest, Page 78 (35)
Q. Did you make any search for your mother?
A. No, sir.
Q. Why not?
A. I thought she was out of the house; I thought she had gone out. I called Maggie to go to Dr. Bowen's. When they came I said, "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is." I thought she had gone out.
Q. Did you tell Maggie you thought your mother had come in?
A. No, sir.
Q. That you thought you heard her come in?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you say to anybody that you thought she was killed up stairs?
A. No, sir.
Q. To anybody?
A. No, sir.
Q. You made no effort to find your mother at all?
A. No, sir.
If Lizzie sent anyone to search for Abby inside the house, she must believe she is there, that she has returned, which supports the statements by Bridget and Mrs. Churchill which indicate that Lizzie thought Abby had returned, she heard her come in.
From the other perspective, if Lizzie thought Abby was out, she had no reason to search for her in the house. She had no reason to prevent Bridget from searching at Whitehead's or anywhere else for her. Abby was out, and Lizzie did not know where.
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Shelley
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Yes, I see this, but didn't other testimony state she thought she had heard Abby come in , and since Bridget had been upstairs , Bridget knew which rooms Abby was not in as she had already been in them herself, leaving only the front bedroom as a possibility. And that is exactly where Bridget and Addie headed.
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Yooper
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I couldn't agree with you more Shelley, there was only one logical option left for upstairs, and Lizzie specifically sent them there. The problem I have is that we keep coming back to what Lizzie said refuting what Mrs. Churchill and Bridget said. Well, Lizzie refutes that point herself in this very testimony! She contradicts herself quite often, in fact! I can't quite understand using Lizzie's Inquest testimony to refute that of Mrs. Churchill and Bridget when she actually supports them!
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FairhavenGuy
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I have to agree with Yooper and Shelley, here.
There is simply no reason why anyone should suppose Mrs. Churchill and Bridget are lying on this point. Why would they? They both indicate Lizzie asked them to search INSIDE THE HOUSE.
Lizzie also says she asked them to look inside the house for Abby.
While being questioned at the inquest, knowing that she is a suspect, and having consulted with her lawyer, Lizzie says that she asked they search in Abby's room. Even after Bridget and Mrs. Churchill had both been up there to get sheets. That really makes no sense. Especially since Bridget and Mrs. Churchill went up the front stairs toward the guest room.
Now Kat, you suggest that when Bridget and Mrs. C. went up for the sheets, they didn't search for Abby. But if she had been up there, and if she had been alive, how would they not have seen her?
Are you suggesting, Kat, that Lizzie would have sent them up the back stairs a second time in search of an alive Abby? Hadn't Lizzie herself hollered up that back stairs for Bridget on the third floor? Wouldn't a living Abby have heard that?Would Lizzie have thought Abby might have somehow got to her room in the meantime?
In fact, with all the ruckus going on following the discovery of Andrew, if Abby had still been alive in the front guest room, sewing or something, she would have heard the commotion and come down.
So the most important fact we can get from this whole episode is that if Lizzie is, at this point in time, asking people to go anywhere in the house to look for Abby, it has to be a dead Abby that they're looking for.
So whether or not Abby got a note, whether or not Lizzie said she heard Abby return, when Lizzie sends people in search of Abby INSIDE THE HOUSE, it's got to be a dead Abby that they're looking for.
I think that indicates that Lizzie knew Abby was dead before her body was found.
There is simply no reason why anyone should suppose Mrs. Churchill and Bridget are lying on this point. Why would they? They both indicate Lizzie asked them to search INSIDE THE HOUSE.
Lizzie also says she asked them to look inside the house for Abby.
While being questioned at the inquest, knowing that she is a suspect, and having consulted with her lawyer, Lizzie says that she asked they search in Abby's room. Even after Bridget and Mrs. Churchill had both been up there to get sheets. That really makes no sense. Especially since Bridget and Mrs. Churchill went up the front stairs toward the guest room.
Now Kat, you suggest that when Bridget and Mrs. C. went up for the sheets, they didn't search for Abby. But if she had been up there, and if she had been alive, how would they not have seen her?
Are you suggesting, Kat, that Lizzie would have sent them up the back stairs a second time in search of an alive Abby? Hadn't Lizzie herself hollered up that back stairs for Bridget on the third floor? Wouldn't a living Abby have heard that?Would Lizzie have thought Abby might have somehow got to her room in the meantime?
In fact, with all the ruckus going on following the discovery of Andrew, if Abby had still been alive in the front guest room, sewing or something, she would have heard the commotion and come down.
So the most important fact we can get from this whole episode is that if Lizzie is, at this point in time, asking people to go anywhere in the house to look for Abby, it has to be a dead Abby that they're looking for.
So whether or not Abby got a note, whether or not Lizzie said she heard Abby return, when Lizzie sends people in search of Abby INSIDE THE HOUSE, it's got to be a dead Abby that they're looking for.
I think that indicates that Lizzie knew Abby was dead before her body was found.
I've met Kat and Harry and Stef, oh my!
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Yooper
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Lizzie certainly did think Abby was dead:
Mrs. Churchill, Inquest, Page 128:
Q. Crying?
A. No Sir. I put my hand on her arm, this way, and said “Lizzie, where is your father?” She says “In the sitting room.” I said “Where was you when it happened?” She said “I went to the barn to get a piece of iron.” I said “Where is your mother?” She says “I don’t know, she had a note to go and see some one that was sick this morning, but I don’t know but they have killed her too.” She said “Father must have had an enemy, for we have all been sick, and we think the milk has been poisoned.” Then she said “Dr. Bowen is not at home, but I must have a Doctor.” I says “Shall I go and try to find someone to go and get a doctor?”
Q. What was that?
A. She said Dr. Bowen is not at home, and I must have a Doctor. I says “Shall I go, Lizzie, and try to find someone to go and get one?” She said “yes.” I went out and ran across the street, because I knew the young man that worked for us had gone in a yard where they sell horses, Mr. Hall’s yard, with a carriage he had been washing in our yard. He was going out of the yard that day when I went in with my bundles. I went across and called for Thomas Bowles. I says “Somebody has killed Mr. Borden; go and get a Doctor.” I don’t know where he went. I went back. Soon after I got back she says “I shall have to go to the cemetery myself.” “No”, I says, “Lizzie, the undertaker will attend to all such things as that for you; they generally do.”
This also implies, since Lizzie thought Abby was dead and she would have to go to the cemetery herself, that Abby had returned. There was absolutely no reason for Lizzie to think Abby was dead if she was out of the house.
Mrs. Churchill, Inquest, Page 128:
Q. Crying?
A. No Sir. I put my hand on her arm, this way, and said “Lizzie, where is your father?” She says “In the sitting room.” I said “Where was you when it happened?” She said “I went to the barn to get a piece of iron.” I said “Where is your mother?” She says “I don’t know, she had a note to go and see some one that was sick this morning, but I don’t know but they have killed her too.” She said “Father must have had an enemy, for we have all been sick, and we think the milk has been poisoned.” Then she said “Dr. Bowen is not at home, but I must have a Doctor.” I says “Shall I go and try to find someone to go and get a doctor?”
Q. What was that?
A. She said Dr. Bowen is not at home, and I must have a Doctor. I says “Shall I go, Lizzie, and try to find someone to go and get one?” She said “yes.” I went out and ran across the street, because I knew the young man that worked for us had gone in a yard where they sell horses, Mr. Hall’s yard, with a carriage he had been washing in our yard. He was going out of the yard that day when I went in with my bundles. I went across and called for Thomas Bowles. I says “Somebody has killed Mr. Borden; go and get a Doctor.” I don’t know where he went. I went back. Soon after I got back she says “I shall have to go to the cemetery myself.” “No”, I says, “Lizzie, the undertaker will attend to all such things as that for you; they generally do.”
This also implies, since Lizzie thought Abby was dead and she would have to go to the cemetery herself, that Abby had returned. There was absolutely no reason for Lizzie to think Abby was dead if she was out of the house.
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Kat
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--ChristopherSo whether or not Abby got a note, whether or not Lizzie said she heard Abby return, when Lizzie sends people in search of Abby INSIDE THE HOUSE, it's got to be a dead Abby that they're looking for.
I think that indicates that Lizzie knew Abby was dead before her body was found.
Oh I agree it's probably a dead Abbie. And you mention note or no note, which I had also mentioned earlier. I do think it's possible that if Bridget was involved, then her utterances can also be reevaluated thusly.
--ChristopherThere is simply no reason why anyone should suppose Mrs. Churchill and Bridget are lying on this point. Why would they? They both indicate Lizzie asked them to search INSIDE THE HOUSE.
I also don't claim Mrs. Churchill "lied." Or Bridget.
This is the kind of debate that actually reaps results. Because Lizzie's voice is heard, it adds to the context. We all know this is a complicated case, though somehow in ways it seems simple. Hearing everyone involved, in context, is what is worth considering. That is mainly what I've been striving for always. Also, just to hope people are aware the Lizzie's words should, can and must be included and not set aside.
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FairhavenGuy
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Thanks for clarifying your position, Kat. The fact is that one can place all of the statements in context with one another, but they cannot all be reconciled. Somewhere in there somebody isn't telling the truth.
So then there's this. If Lizzie knew that Abby was dead before her body was found. [And if Abby died at about 9:30 or thereabouts.] That seems to indicate that Abby died while Lizzie was inside the house. It also seems to indicate that *hearing Abby return* was a fiction, and that most likely the note itself was a fiction.
As far as process of elimination before the search, we just don't know. Whether or not we know exactly what was said by whom, it seems pretty clear, though, that Bridget and Mrs. Churchill went straight up the front stairs with no false starts and found Abby in the very first place they looked.
It's possible that Bridget didn't need to eliminate. She led the way, didn't she? She might have known both where Abby was and in what state.
So then there's this. If Lizzie knew that Abby was dead before her body was found. [And if Abby died at about 9:30 or thereabouts.] That seems to indicate that Abby died while Lizzie was inside the house. It also seems to indicate that *hearing Abby return* was a fiction, and that most likely the note itself was a fiction.
As far as process of elimination before the search, we just don't know. Whether or not we know exactly what was said by whom, it seems pretty clear, though, that Bridget and Mrs. Churchill went straight up the front stairs with no false starts and found Abby in the very first place they looked.
It's possible that Bridget didn't need to eliminate. She led the way, didn't she? She might have known both where Abby was and in what state.
I've met Kat and Harry and Stef, oh my!
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
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Yooper
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Lizzie knew where Bridget's room was and she knew the women had gone to Abby's room. Dr. Bowen had given Bridget the wrong key at first and had to get another one from the mantel. Lizzie was just as aware as Bridget of where the women had been up to the point of asking them to go upstairs, so it isn't necessarily Bridget's process of elimination. In fact, Bridget's process of elimination led her to Whitehead's as the first consideration. Lizzie pointedly rejected that idea in favor of upstairs, so it had to be Lizzie's choice, not Bridget's.
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FairhavenGuy
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Yooper
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Involving Bridget in a prior awareness of Abby's murder at this point would necessarily make her offer to go to Whitehead's a matter of simple theatrics. It would not be reasonable for her to fear going to Abby's room for a sheet, nor fear going to the guest room. That would have to be acting, also. Bridget would have to have been enough of an actress to get away with all that if she was involved.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
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FairhavenGuy
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I'm not sure when, exactly, Bridget might have started putting two and two together.
I guess if one accepts that she was not engaging in theatrics about going to Mrs. Whitehead's or being afraid to go upstairs, then one cannot also think she helped Lizzie clean up in any way before she went to Dr. Bowen's and Mrs. Churchill came over.
I tend to think that Bridget may have helped directly or indirectly as the day progressed, but I don't think much evidence points to her being involved before Dr. Bowen's arrival.
By the way, I've got to go back a read the accounts again, but do we have any clear picture of what Bridget was doing AFTER Abby was found? AFTER Lizzie went upstairs to her room? She was aware that Lizzie changed into the pink wrapper, but what exactly did Bridget do all afternoon?
I guess if one accepts that she was not engaging in theatrics about going to Mrs. Whitehead's or being afraid to go upstairs, then one cannot also think she helped Lizzie clean up in any way before she went to Dr. Bowen's and Mrs. Churchill came over.
I tend to think that Bridget may have helped directly or indirectly as the day progressed, but I don't think much evidence points to her being involved before Dr. Bowen's arrival.
By the way, I've got to go back a read the accounts again, but do we have any clear picture of what Bridget was doing AFTER Abby was found? AFTER Lizzie went upstairs to her room? She was aware that Lizzie changed into the pink wrapper, but what exactly did Bridget do all afternoon?
I've met Kat and Harry and Stef, oh my!
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
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Yooper
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Now we're coming to grips with limiting factors for Bridget's possible involvement, excellent projection Christopher!! I suggest that Bridget's possible involvement might exclude any knowledge of Abby's murder, but would include knowledge of Andrew's murder. Bridget could have been helping Lizzie cover up murdering Andrew without being aware of Abby's death based upon hearing Lizzie tell Andrew that Abby was out, and Lizzie telling Bridget directly that Abby was out as Bridget went to her room.
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Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
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Yooper
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I think the story about the note proves Lizzie guilty as at least an accessory. Lizzie was clearly aware of Abby's death. The story about the note only serves as a conscious attempt to hide that fact, to cover up knowledge of Abby's death.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
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Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
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Allen
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So to clarify what you're trying to say, you believe it's possible that Bridget figured out that Lizzie killed Andrew and was trying to cover for her? Or that she had beforehand knowledge that Andrew was going to die?Yooper @ Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:51 am wrote:Now we're coming to grips with limiting factors for Bridget's possible involvement, excellent projection Christopher!! I suggest that Bridget's possible involvement might exclude any knowledge of Abby's murder, but would include knowledge of Andrew's murder. Bridget could have been helping Lizzie cover up murdering Andrew without being aware of Abby's death based upon hearing Lizzie tell Andrew that Abby was out, and Lizzie telling Bridget directly that Abby was out as Bridget went to her room.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Yooper
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Yes, maybe that needs clarification Allen. I'm suggesting that there is a way for Bridget to have been involved in covering up Andrew's murder without being aware of Abby's murder. I'm not suggesting Bridget was involved at all, only pointing out that she could have been. Further, I'm neither suggesting that Bridget had any prior knowledge that either Abby or Andrew would die that day, nor am I suggesting she had any active part in it. All this would mean is that Bridget was not acting when she offered to go to Whitehead's or expressed fear at going upstairs alone.
Bridget didn't even need to be immediately aware that Lizzie killed Andrew! If Lizzie told Bridget that she was out of the house at the time of the murders, it left Bridget in the house at that same time, and Bridget might have thought that she would be the prime suspect. If Bridget accepted Lizzie's explanation as to Abby's whereabouts, why wouldn't she accept Lizzie's explanation as to Lizzie's own whereabouts? Bridget showed a healthy respect for the authorities, perhaps even to the point of intimidation or fear. It would be Bridget's word against Lizzie's. Bridget could not verify Lizzie's whereabouts first hand, but Lizzie could verify, and did verify Bridget's whereabouts. From Bridget's perspective at the moment, it might have looked pretty bad for her.
Bridget didn't even need to be immediately aware that Lizzie killed Andrew! If Lizzie told Bridget that she was out of the house at the time of the murders, it left Bridget in the house at that same time, and Bridget might have thought that she would be the prime suspect. If Bridget accepted Lizzie's explanation as to Abby's whereabouts, why wouldn't she accept Lizzie's explanation as to Lizzie's own whereabouts? Bridget showed a healthy respect for the authorities, perhaps even to the point of intimidation or fear. It would be Bridget's word against Lizzie's. Bridget could not verify Lizzie's whereabouts first hand, but Lizzie could verify, and did verify Bridget's whereabouts. From Bridget's perspective at the moment, it might have looked pretty bad for her.