RayS, Reporting Posts, and Forum Rules

Post by **Adminlizzieborden** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:46 pm

The Lizzie Borden Society Forum is like a grand social experiment of sorts. It is peopled with individuals from all walks of life---those from differing social status, ethnicity, nationality, gender and sexual preference, age, religion, political persuasion, and expertise on the case itself.

We have evolved into quite an eclectic mix of personalities and have had our share of intrigue and controversy over the years as well. For a site as active as this, about a case as controversial as this, we have, for the most part, behaved well towards one another. Most of us post with respect for our fellow debater, and have come to learn how to turn a phase to get just the right bang for our buck, without ruffling too many feathers in the process.

Unfortunately, and for some reason I am at a loss to comprehend, the atmosphere has lately become one of back-biting and infighting. It seems you all like to engage in this sort of behavior or else you would cease from doing so.

And I am not just speaking about RayS, who seems to greatly enjoy his position as Brown's spokesperson----and in the process seems to upset people not only with his one trick pony posts (which are his right to engage in), but with is continued couched attacks on those who disagree with him.

Then there are those who fight back with Ray, and make the situation much worse by responding to the perceived indignities with like-minded and even more direct and negative language. Some instances of profanity have even showed up lately, which is strictly verboten!

I have even received profanity in a PM to me regarding this issue----from one complaining about RayS's negativity! Several people have "threatened" to quit the forum because they find it so distasteful---I am sorry that things have degraded to such a state that people would want to leave here. No one has actually left us, as far as I can tell, because those that said they would are still posting daily. Thank you for that!

I have not ignored your complaints or reports. I have done my best to make the forum a generally genial place where rules are used to guide the users, not restrain them from free speech and open debate. When speaking about so gruesome a crime, with some who believe in their souls that they have the solution to the case, sometimes tempers flare and ire sparks a heated exchange. I don't want to curtail any of that----but unless a member publicly disregards my attempts to suggest a level of civility and cordiality, there is really nothing I can do ---my principles will not allow me to ban users who merely bother others. There have been no threats or words of hatred volleyed by anyone here.

It seems to me the world is truly upside down if one man can incite so much bad behavior on so many people's parts---or is it the moon?

Please, everyone, calm down. Realize that you are going to have to deal with people you don't like or respect or who you wouldn't have to your home for tea. Please ignore those who get your goat or try to or you think are trying to? You should be able to do this----you are adults and have wide ranging experiences in the world with odd ducks and blowholes. Try not to get all involved in the pettiness of it all and relax and breathe and enjoy the sunshine when you can---life is too short for all this tension.

Stefani Koorey
Administrator
Lizzie Borden Society Forum

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:07 pm

Don't get the impression that you arouse my anger. You see, one can only be angry with those he respects.
Richard M. Nixon

I have posted this quote before but few can subscribe to it. This is not to say that I never get upset with some on this forum, just that as I get older it becomes easier to dismiss. After all, when I visit the zoo and the monkey shows me his middle finger, I don't come down to his level and respond.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:16 pm

Thank you Stef, for a thoughtful message. I can only speak for myself when I say that the Forum, is to me, like a wonderful sort of party where your guests can drop by to chat, visit, speak about non-Lizzie topics, and discuss and debate one of our favorite mutual subjects. You are like our hostess, along with Kat, and Harry (my idea of the family's favorite Uncle), and move graciously from room to room making sure we are all having a grand time.

As with any party composed of diverse personalities, of course not everyone will click with everyone else- and I doubt anyone expects that. I am charmed and delighted that other than one "guest"- all of the participants seem to be courteous, respectful, non-caustic, and are able to present views in a cordial way. At most parties , if an offensive person demeans, attacks, puts down, ridicules, or otherwise insults another, the offended person may go into another room, move to another group, or leave the party- or tell the rude person where to go and how to get there.

After not being invited to many parties, I think such an abrasive person would get the hint that his/her behavior is not appreciated, and he/she will soon become a social pariah and will not be wanted anywhere. A wise individual would consider moderating such negative and critical approaches and try to be a little more party-friendly.

Sure, the Ignore button works short term, but sometimes following posts are hard to piece together and come off looking like non-sequiturs. One also never knows when a snide remark will be directed with full force unaware -or from which angle or thread. When an unpleasant guest continues to follow one around from room to room - thread to thread- after awhile, even the kindliest and most patient person gets road rage. Leisure time is precious. Moments to escape to a favorite topic with like-minded people, even internet friends, is a fun escape and sometimes even a guilty pleasure. I so enjoy the people here and have learned lots. I take a real pleasure also in trying to think of something fresh or in taking a photo to share with people far away. We have a lot of fun helping, asking for help, and floating ideas and plans and theories. Nobody wants to be insulted or put-down.

Reading back over the angry posts by people who are hurt and offended, I find very. very seldom it is over anything to do with Lizzie or the case- it is more a personal attack on someone's point of view, education, age, life experience,intelligence, and right to hold a view.
I would wager all of us would go to the mat to protect the right to have a difference of opinion. It is in how the difference is expressed that is at issue here, and it should be a debate on the subject, not the person.

I don't know what is to be done. I know I sometimes would like to post something but hold back because I know I will receive a faceful of buckshot- and I am not a shy person. I wonder if any others are reluctant to post for fear of being ruthlessly ridiculed? I was alarmed to read recently that Harry has even considered leaving- and any gathering could ill- afford losing such an asset.

I understand all which is posted above, but there may be some other aspects of the situation, and this is just mine.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:51 pm

Shelley @ Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:16 pm wrote:After not being invited to many parties, I think such an abrasive person would get the hint that his/her behavior is not appreciated, and he/she will soon become a social pariah and will not be wanted anywhere. A wise individual would consider moderating such negative and critical approaches and try to be a little more party-friendly. .

For the sake of argument let us consider that this person is a "He".

"A wise individual would consider"......ah ha! you see? That is everyone's error. They see the antagonizer as "wise". Naturally they would be insulted by him.

"get a hint that his behavior in not appreciated".......ah ha ! but he not only knows he is not appreciated, he does not care, so why would you? Abrasion is how he gets his jollies off.

"Social pariah"............ahhhhhh ha ! That is a station in life in which he feels comfortable, especially when it's so easy. It is easier to acquire respect with insult than complement for some. He has sure gained the respect of those he has on the run. He loves it. Finds it great theater. That's proven by the great amount of hits and views his posts receive. Everyone tunes in, everyone wants to see what he has to say, everyone wants to see whose buttons he is pushing. The power of the pen/keyboard...... fascinates him. And, it works every time. Respect comes so easily from those so readily willing to give it up. Why does no one see this?

Or is he sincere? Perhaps he does not realize that what he is saying is insulting? But I'm sure he does-----after all, it's so easy.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:28 pm

I don't know if "respect" is the word I would use in saying what such a patronizing and insulting individual gains. Disdain, disbelief, dismay, and disgust perhaps- but more importantly- attention. And if that is how someone who professes this topic is not of particular interest, nor takes any time or interest in reading responses (and takes a delight in telling you so), gets attention- well, I'd say that misguided individual is plain pathetic and pitiable.

I am a message board moderator on a Titanic site which has the old "three strikes and you're out" policy. Any personal attack, insult or rudeness is met with a warning, the offensive post is put in the recycle bin, and the thread is sometimes closed down to cool off for a time. Recently there was a vicious slam about the weight of one of the posters - which resulted in a few people being denied the privilege of posting. The site is an optional subscription site, so when money is involved- nobody should have to pay to get kicked in the ribs on a daily basis. On a no fee site, bad manners, in my opinion, are even more deplorable. And that- is all I can say on this subject.

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:10 pm

I can't speak for anyone but myself, nor do I wish to, but for me, 1. I am not responsible for anyone but myself. If I can't control what I say or how I react to someone else, then I am the one to blame, 2. Anytime I let someone turn me into a hateful, vindictive, mean person, I might win the battle, but by doing so lose the war. 3. If ever I enter into a hateful, mean, sarcastic, name calling arqument, a third person hearing, reading or seeing it, is going to have a hard time fiquring out who the real culprit is. as at that time we are both going to sound just alike. IMHO

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:18 pm

Stefani, thanks for the thoughtful and insightful comments on the situation. I hope everyone reads your words very carefully.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:27 am

Amen, Shelley.

Tracy...

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:23 pm

"Oh would some power the giftie gi'e us to see ourselves as others see us"

Yes, I will defend Brown's Theory like a "Perry Mason" or a Clarence Darrow (a not inappropriate example for advocates).

The one fault that no one has mentioned, and I am very well aware of, is that I'm spending way too much time here, and on trifles. That explains my alleged "following someone around", its just to explore and learn something, if I can. No, I can't becuase no others here have dug up something new.
Those complainers seem to be saying "I don't want anyone to comment unfavorably about anything I say". Are they really so knowledgable and accurate on an old crime where everyone involved was dead before we were born? No one can "prove" anything, they can only attempt a reasonable solution to best fits the known facts.

It is the equivalent of arguing over how many angels will fit on the head of a pin. (I have a solution, worked it out on my slide rule.)

I think I will have to post one more Topic on Brown's Theory in response to some others comments. Then it may be time for a vacation, as in 2004.

But was the board really that much better without me? At least I wasn't forced out for gross misbehaviour. In the real world you can just avoid or walk away from some spitheads (this does not apply to whoever reads this, of course). I've done it many times: "I'm sorry, but I've got work to do."

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:25 pm

mbhenty @ Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:07 pm wrote:Don't get the impression that you arouse my anger. You see, one can only be angry with those he respects.
Richard M. Nixon

I have posted this quote before but few can subscribe to it. This is not to say that I never get upset with some on this forum, just that as I get older it becomes easier to dismiss. After all, when I visit the zoo and the monkey shows me his middle finger, I don't come down to his level and respond.

The fact is that people are far more likely to become angry with those they disrespect, those of a lower status or class. IMO

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:34 pm

The bottom line for this site (and others) is: will people be allowed to post their disagreements with other people's opinions?

When I've tried to avoid or ignore questions that seem tricky or rhetorical, I am then accused of avoiding or ignoring their questions!

So what do they really want? It seems like an organized conspiracy to me. "AN**" often seems like another personna for "AU**EY", "TH****UE" often seems to copy another person's attacks upon me, etc. That's ok, I'm a big boy and have a thick skin.

NOBODY here has said anything about that author who joined this site only to be flamed by those who have never written a book on this case.
I at least refrained from commenting on a book I never read.

So there seems to be a group who conspires against other. Maybe this could be cured by removing Private Messages from this board so everybody would be in the sunlight as to their opinions and comments?

Typed statements are not like the tones of a voice, but those with experience can read the tone from the typed words. At least I think I can.

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:35 pm

I joined this forum, because I am interested in everything Lizzie Borden. I have been infatuated with the case since I saw the Legend movie back in the 1970's. I was delighted to find a place to talk to others who share the same enthusiasm. Everybody here is friendly with the exception of one person. I am an easy going, mild mannered, friendly person who is easy to get along with. I admit that I lost my temper recently because of this one person, and I said some curse words. I am sorry to all who were offended, (except for that one person), but I am only human and nobody is perfect. I thought by reading Stefani's post, that one person would take heed, and try to get along with everyone here. I see by his recent posts, he has no intentions of stopping his bad behavior. He will still annoy, belittle, berate, insult, and generally run a muck on this forum. He will continue his one trick pony posts "which he has the right to", and we will all just have to deal with it the best we can short of using profanity. It is a shame that this one person has the power to make most of the other members here have less than an enjoyable time when we visit this site to post our thoughts or ideas. Yes, you can try to ignore him, but he is everywhere, spreading his venom to try to lure you into his miserable trap. Those are my feelings on the matter.

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 11:27 pm

This is all I want to say on the subject then I'm going to be silent forever about it:

(I am speaking the proverbial "you", not any one individual)

If you are making people feel uncomfortable and they are telling you that you are, listen to them and learn why. Its worth the effort so we can all feel comfortable with each other. It has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing about any one particular theory. It's about the aura that one gives out, the feeling one projects that makes someone else feel uncomfortable in ways they may not even be able to articulate. In the frustration of not being able to articulate it, or speak back, or communicate with the person hurtling the uncomfortable remark, they get angry and lash back with aggressive behavior that makes the original umcomfortable remark quite tame by comparison and thereby blows any credibility in their response.

By lashing back in that manner, the person who made that person feel uncomfortable can get very self defensive instead of stepping up and saying:

"I'm sorry I was abrasive. If you felt uncomfortable with what I said, please know I didn't mean anything personal."

It's takes a lot of maturity to reply like that, but its the only way to be CIVIL in an environment where there absolutely no reason NOT to be civil.

OR

Perhaps what was perceived as an insult or something personal was merely a remark made WITHOUT tone of voice. These postings don't have tone of voice so often something does come across in the wrong manner.

"Yeah, right" can be read like someone is agreeing with you, or it can be read like someone is rolling their eyes and being sarcastic. There are so many other examples.

That's all I'm going to say and from here on in I'm taking a vow of silence on the subject and focus on other topics on this wonderful site.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 3:25 pm

Some people will feel uncomfortable with any comment that disturbs their prejudice or assumptions. Surely you know that?

I know I am battling against the many who have adopted the "Lizzie Dunnit" theory, one that goes against the known facts of the Trial. THEY will never accept any statement that goes against their preconceived notions. Its like trying to prove the existence of God to an atheist, or atheism to a Believer.

Actually, it all depends on now you define your terms. An Act of God seems to be the explanation for anything unexplicable. Read your insurance policy.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 3:30 pm

Smudgeman @ Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:35 pm wrote:I joined this forum, because I am interested in everything Lizzie Borden. I have been infatuated with the case since I saw the Legend movie back in the 1970's. I was delighted to find a place to talk to others who share the same enthusiasm. Everybody here is friendly with the exception of one person. I am an easy going, mild mannered, friendly person who is easy to get along with. I admit that I lost my temper recently because of this one person, and I said some curse words. I am sorry to all who were offended, (except for that one person), but I am only human and nobody is perfect. I thought by reading Stefani's post, that one person would take heed, and try to get along with everyone here. I see by his recent posts, he has no intentions of stopping his bad behavior. He will still annoy, belittle, berate, insult, and generally run a muck on this forum. He will continue his one trick pony posts "which he has the right to", and we will all just have to deal with it the best we can short of using profanity. It is a shame that this one person has the power to make most of the other members here have less than an enjoyable time when we visit this site to post our thoughts or ideas. Yes, you can try to ignore him, but he is everywhere, spreading his venom to try to lure you into his miserable trap. Those are my feelings on the matter.

Actually, anyone who has ever worked in NY city and elsewhere will find this site quite tepid. Ever worked among laborers who are not quite polite?

I also know that work pressures, or problems at home, can affect a person quite a bit. You do know this, don't you?

As for my comments, I think most objective observers will see that I try to give back as it is given unto me. Turning the other cheek might be for some people, but I think it means another slap.

Was it a Saint who said "if anyone hits you, knock him on his ass"?

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 5:24 pm

No Rays I have never worked among laborers, I have a college degree and I work for a major Corporation. I worked my way through college as a waiter, and found it amazingly easy to get along with my co-workers. Bad behavior is certainly not tolerated or rewarded in the Corporate world.
I actually love my job and have no pressures there, and my home and family life couldn't be better. Home is where I want to be, so don't assume otherwise.
As for your comments, you are obviously not here to make any friends , you have made that abundantly clear.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 7:51 pm

Gee, coul Ray it's all clear to us now. You're really from New York Silly. You wear a hard hat. Sorry to hear you have problems at home and stressed by your work environment.

You should do what I do when it comes to turning the other cheek. I pull my pants up and walk away.

I understand that you are not alone in trying to understand what I say when I insist that you can only be angry with those you respect.

If you walk by my house you may come across my two mad pit bulls. You may hate them. You may fear them. But you will not open the gate------why? because you will respect them. I dare say pretty much the way some feel about you on this forum, wouldn't you say Ray.

Perhaps Nixon and I are the only ones who subscribe to his quote, thus if I don't know you......, like you,,,,,,,, adore you......, love you, there is nothing you can say to me verbally over this forum to insult me or hurt my feelings.

All this said Ray, and to the possibility of making enemies on this forum, I like you. I always read your posts. I find you abrasive, caustic, biting, insensitive, confrontational, flippant, but unique. And the sky is blue and forests are green, it is just the way it is.

So post away Ray and feel free to dish it out to me as you wish, I can take it..................why, well I like you.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:26 am

The "three strikes and you're out" rule someone mentioned that happens on other forums certainly doesn't apply here. Otherwise the one causing everyone to be offended and defensive would have been out a long time ago and the forum would have returned to its original friendly and informative atmosphere many moons ago. But, for whatever passive aggressive reason, this has been and evidently will be allowed to be continued, unlike other formats, where the administrations do not allow their members to be abused in any way. No one on this forum who has objected to such horrible behavior from one member is doing it because of any theory or idea one particular person has. There have been many who have had differing points of view but are able to get along with others because they don't belittle or attack. This is what the offender doesn't and won't ever understand. No one ultimately gives a rat's behind (that's for your sensibilities, Stefani) about whether it was Prof. Peacock in the library with the candlestick as much as they do being treated well from others when they give their point of view.
Ray is being allowed to continue because he is someone other than who he says he is and the administration knows this, or because he has had 15 minutes of fame somewhere along the line and they are intimidated by that,or he is threatening in some way, or maybe all three. No one else would have been allowed this much liberty to be so hurtful. Nevertheless, I am tired of his getting so much attention from all his eccentricities and taking away so much of what used to be enjoyable on this forum. In light of now viewing him as an eccentric I am going to look upon him as the male equivalent of a bag lady and look away whenever he unconsciously (obviously) embarrasses himself as I would someone like that on a street. I have received so many private messages from others on this forum who feel exactly the same way, so I feel supported in my decision to come back to the forum and enjoy what I can from it. He can look upon me as a reincarnation of audrey or whatever he wants to do to make his behavior feel justified in his own eyes. People do whatever they have to do to survive emotionally, so I won't take that away from him.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:49 am

I would suggest that the real "profanity" is the personal attacks, not the responses. Why would a response be necessary if not to retain one's integrity as the result of a personal attack? Once again, the operative term is "response". If no one else is going to defend me, I'll do it myself. If a personal attack is termed "bad" and is allowable, how can a response in kind to that attack be termed "much worse" and not be allowed? I don't quite understand it. It tends to make the statement "but unless a member publicly disregards my attempts to suggest a level of civility and cordiality, there is really nothing I can do ---" seem highly selective if the burden of civility falls solely to those being attacked. However, this is Stephani's forum and she can do as she pleases.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:11 pm

Yooper @ Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:49 pm wrote:I would suggest that the real "profanity" is the personal attacks, not the responses. Why would a response be necessary if not to retain one's integrity as the result of a personal attack? Once again, the operative term is "response". If no one else is going to defend me, I'll do it myself. If a personal attack is termed "bad" and is allowable, how can a response in kind to that attack be termed "much worse" and not be allowed? I don't quite understand it. It tends to make the statement "but unless a member publicly disregards my attempts to suggest a level of civility and cordiality, there is really nothing I can do ---" seem highly selective if the burden of civility falls solely to those being attacked. However, this is Stephani's forum and she can do as she pleases.

Thank you.

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:14 pm

I know I am battling against the many who have adopted the "Lizzie Dunnit" theory, one that goes against the known facts of the Trial. THEY will never accept any statement that goes against their preconceived notions. Its like trying to prove the existence of God to an atheist, or atheism to a Believer.

And, dear lord, why must you "battle" thus? And as for a "known fact," it is a "known fact" that the Borden were slain on August 4th, 1892. It is not, for example, a "known fact" that Emma told Lizzie to burn her old dress; it IS a "known fact" that Emma TESTIFIED that that is what she told Lizzie.

Please stop trying to foist Billy Borden on us at every turn.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:15 pm

There is a way in which all of this makes sense, but I would need to know the premise or hypothesis for the "grand social experiment" alluded to. Could you elaborate, Stephani?

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:16 pm

Yooper @ Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:49 pm wrote: However, this is Stephani's forum and she can do as she pleases.

True. However, at what price?

And, it may be her forum, but is she a forum unto herself? Without the participants there is no forum.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:18 pm

What? Did I miss something? We are part of an experiment here? I took "social experiment" to be in a general sense. Not that I mind, but is this something for a study of how people behave? Huh?

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:46 pm

I would like to thank the many of you who have in expressing your own sentiments, expressed mine as well. It certainly does seem that only one person really has the freedom of speech.

Tracy...

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:54 pm

Smudgeman @ Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:35 pm wrote:I joined this forum, because I am interested in everything Lizzie Borden. I have been infatuated with the case since I saw the Legend movie back in the 1970's. I was delighted to find a place to talk to others who share the same enthusiasm. Everybody here is friendly with the exception of one person. I am an easy going, mild mannered, friendly person who is easy to get along with. I admit that I lost my temper recently because of this one person, and I said some curse words. I am sorry to all who were offended, (except for that one person), but I am only human and nobody is perfect. I thought by reading Stefani's post, that one person would take heed, and try to get along with everyone here. I see by his recent posts, he has no intentions of stopping his bad behavior. He will still annoy, belittle, berate, insult, and generally run a muck on this forum. He will continue his one trick pony posts "which he has the right to", and we will all just have to deal with it the best we can short of using profanity. It is a shame that this one person has the power to make most of the other members here have less than an enjoyable time when we visit this site to post our thoughts or ideas. Yes, you can try to ignore him, but he is everywhere, spreading his venom to try to lure you into his miserable trap. Those are my feelings on the matter.

Thank you for this information. Do you all know what a self-serving statement is? Or an eyewitness observation that has no corroboration? Judge Dewey commented on this.

PS
I received a nasty message some weeks ago. But when I went back to quote from it, here is all that was left of it. Can people re-edit their Private Messages after they sent them? What purpose does this serve?

The original long message would impeach the self-serving statements of one poster.

I would suggest that you didn't respond to those who are choosing to ignore you. Your "opinions" are old and dried out, just like you.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:00 pm

Again, I suspect a conspiracy among a few to attack me. That's alright.
But I wonder if they have a hidden agenda in trying to wreck this site.

Not how quickly their venom is redirected towards the Administrator!!!

I suggest the Private Messages be banned, or made available to Admin to settle questions about conspiracy, etc.

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:12 pm

RayS @ Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:54 pm wrote:
Smudgeman @ Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:35 pm wrote:I joined this forum, because I am interested in everything Lizzie Borden. I have been infatuated with the case since I saw the Legend movie back in the 1970's. I was delighted to find a place to talk to others who share the same enthusiasm. Everybody here is friendly with the exception of one person. I am an easy going, mild mannered, friendly person who is easy to get along with. I admit that I lost my temper recently because of this one person, and I said some curse words. I am sorry to all who were offended, (except for that one person), but I am only human and nobody is perfect. I thought by reading Stefani's post, that one person would take heed, and try to get along with everyone here. I see by his recent posts, he has no intentions of stopping his bad behavior. He will still annoy, belittle, berate, insult, and generally run a muck on this forum. He will continue his one trick pony posts "which he has the right to", and we will all just have to deal with it the best we can short of using profanity. It is a shame that this one person has the power to make most of the other members here have less than an enjoyable time when we visit this site to post our thoughts or ideas. Yes, you can try to ignore him, but he is everywhere, spreading his venom to try to lure you into his miserable trap. Those are my feelings on the matter.
Thank you for this information. Do you all know what a self-serving statement is? Or an eyewitness observation that has no corroboration? Judge Dewey commented on this.

PS
I received a nasty message some weeks ago. But when I went back to quote from it, here is all that was left of it. Can people re-edit their Private Messages after they sent them? What purpose does this serve?

The original long message would impeach the self-serving statements of one poster.

I would suggest that you didn't respond to those who are choosing to ignore you. Your "opinions" are old and dried out, just like you.

Here we go again, you can dish it out but you can't take it. Pity.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:13 pm

So, how about those Jaguars? Literally ran those Colts out of town and maybe out of contention, Hey?

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:13 pm

PM's are PRIVATE messages, and should be kept as such...and NOT be posted in a public area of the forum without the original senders consent.

Here is the paragraph from the forum rules which may cover this issue:

Quoting Personal Emails
DO NOT quote another person's personal email without their consent. It is a violation of copyright law--the email belongs to the sender not the recipient. Likewise, DO NOT post material from one message board to another without the express permission of the person you are quoting. If you feel that your copyright has been violated, it is your responsibility to contact the moderator for action to be taken.

Tracy...

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:15 pm

Well, if we are guinea pigs in an experiment, this present controversy has surely livened up the message board- at the least

The Colts? Oh, I have no more interest in those guys since they left Baltimore!

Well, if private message capability were banned- people would just use email I also think a conspiracy implies secrecy and so far I see this current situation as wide-open and right out there.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:21 pm

Shelley @ Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:15 pm wrote:Well, if we are guinea pigs in an experiment, this present controversy has surely livened up the message board- at the least

The Colts? Oh, I have no more interest in those guys since they left Baltimore!

Well, if private message capability were banned- people would just use email I also think a conspiracy implies secrecy and so far I see this current situation as wide-open and right out there.

Yes, things were getting a bit slow, weren't they? Excuse me for a bit, I have to get back to my treadwheel!

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:38 pm

Maybe I'm reading what stephani was saying wrong, but my take on it was this>>>>RayS can be obnoxious, rude, caustic, and downright patronizing, but he has done it in a way that falls short of something she could take action on. Then there are those who answer in kind, giving back the rude, caustic, etc. that they recieved, that too fell short of anything that she could take action on, but where the problems arose were the few who lost their tempers and let it become a personal attack, with name calling and the use of profanity.....and from reading the posts above there is one man, who, when he realised himself, that he had gone too far, apologized to all (but one) for what had been said It took alot for him to do so and I admire him for doing it. It's not what RayS is saying, he does (as we all do) have the right to voice his opinions, to disagree with others opinions and to do it over and over again. It's the way he's saying it that's caused so many people to react in a negative way. If he's doing it on purpose then let the shame be on him, ignore him, rise above it. How can going down to that level make anything better? I believe that stephani is doing the best she can, I don't envy her at all, it can't be easy, but I understand where she's coming from. I'm not gonna earn any points for this, but it's just time to let it go. RayS is not going to be kicked out of the forum, nor is anyone else, and I'm sorry folks, hateful, mean, and unkind are still the same no matter who is saying it. Any new person coming on to this forum now, and reading a whole lot of posts, would wonder if this is a place where they would even want to be. Peace

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:43 pm

Well okay- but so help me, Ray- if you tell me to "Look it up" one more time I am going to pop you in the snoot. How's that for conspiracy?

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:55 pm

LOL Shelley...I HAVE one of those !

Tracy...

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:55 pm

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:58 pm

I have one too. I had a nun back in high school, Sister Mary Goretti, who had a MEAN right hook with a yardstick. I also taught English in an all-girls convent school and Sister Mary Knock-em Stiff used to get the girls' attention- after they stopped laughing. NEVER mess with churchladies.

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:18 pm

Conspiracy? Hell, no. I am sick of you fully on my own, without any help whatsoever.

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:27 pm

Shelley @ Tue Dec 12, 2006 7:43 am wrote:Well okay- but so help me, Ray- if you tell me to "Look it up" one more time I am going to pop you in the snoot. How's that for conspiracy?

That's got to be the funniest thing I've ever seen!!!! What is that saying, "a picture is worth a thousand words"

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:29 pm

shakiboo @ Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:38 pm wrote:Maybe I'm reading what stephani was saying wrong, but my take on it was this>>>>RayS can be obnoxious, rude, caustic, and downright patronizing, but he has done it in a way that falls short of something she could take action on. Then there are those who answer in kind, giving back the rude, caustic, etc. that they recieved, that too fell short of anything that she could take action on, but where the problems arose were the few who lost their tempers and let it become a personal attack, with name calling and the use of profanity.....and from reading the posts above there is one man, who, when he realised himself, that he had gone too far, apologized to all (but one) for what had been said It took alot for him to do so and I admire him for doing it. It's not what RayS is saying, he does (as we all do) have the right to voice his opinions, to disagree with others opinions and to do it over and over again. It's the way he's saying it that's caused so many people to react in a negative way. If he's doing it on purpose then let the shame be on him, ignore him, rise above it. How can going down to that level make anything better? I believe that stephani is doing the best she can, I don't envy her at all, it can't be easy, but I understand where she's coming from. I'm not gonna earn any points for this, but it's just time to let it go. RayS is not going to be kicked out of the forum, nor is anyone else, and I'm sorry folks, hateful, mean, and unkind are still the same no matter who is saying it. Any new person coming on to this forum now, and reading a whole lot of posts, would wonder if this is a place where they would even want to be. Peace

Would we all better off if the complainers posted in a positive manner?
For example, what ranking would they give to the various books on this case. Note that only one poster here has taken one book as his guide. And that is no secret!

We know that one poster posed as someone they weren't and was the leader of the pack in attacks against me since he/she joined in 2004.
Has anyone wondered about that? Was there some organized action (or conspiracy) here? I think so.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:30 pm

Bob Gutowski @ Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:18 pm wrote:Conspiracy? Hell, no. I am sick of you fully on my own, without any help whatsoever.

So why did one poster vehemently attack another member after she published her book on this case?

I've never written a book on this case, and never will. I hope that does not disappoint the other posters here.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:35 pm

Shelley @ Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:18 pm wrote:What? Did I miss something? We are part of an experiment here? I took "social experiment" to be in a general sense. Not that I mind, but is this something for a study of how people behave? Huh?

Should we bite the hand that feeds us?
The question may be: what happens with a group of self-selected posters when they deal with a century old crime that can't be solved in a court of law? Will they add any new insights? Will they tend to agree on a solution?

Some poster started to make a list of books and their solutions to the crime. That is more useful than the crying and complaining of others.

There is an old saying: Those who can do, those who can't complain.
Does anyone think that applies to me? WHY?

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:00 pm

RayS, I don't believe there's any conspiracy going on against you, I think maybe in your zeal to get your point across you come across as angry, sarcastic and belittleing to just about any one who has a different opinion then yours. You've apparently upset and possibly hurt alot of peoples feelings along the way. If somehow you don't realise that, then maybe you should take a closer look at some of the posts you've posted and put yourself in the other people shoes and see if you can see, why they would feel the way they do. Your a smart man RayS, you've undoubtedly read many books and have countless ideas to share and impart to us. Be honest with yourself, could you have unwittingly brought this on yourself, if so, won't you try to do what ever it takes to correct it. Lifes too short, times too precious, and this just needs to be gotten over. Peace

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:12 pm

shakiboo @ Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:38 pm wrote:Maybe I'm reading what stephani was saying wrong, but my take on it was this>>>>RayS can be obnoxious, rude, caustic, and downright patronizing, but he has done it in a way that falls short of something she could take action on. Then there are those who answer in kind, giving back the rude, caustic, etc. that they recieved, that too fell short of anything that she could take action on, but where the problems arose were the few who lost their tempers and let it become a personal attack, with name calling and the use of profanity.....and from reading the posts above there is one man, who, when he realised himself, that he had gone too far, apologized to all (but one) for what had been said It took alot for him to do so and I admire him for doing it. It's not what RayS is saying, he does (as we all do) have the right to voice his opinions, to disagree with others opinions and to do it over and over again. It's the way he's saying it that's caused so many people to react in a negative way. If he's doing it on purpose then let the shame be on him, ignore him, rise above it. How can going down to that level make anything better? I believe that stephani is doing the best she can, I don't envy her at all, it can't be easy, but I understand where she's coming from. I'm not gonna earn any points for this, but it's just time to let it go. RayS is not going to be kicked out of the forum, nor is anyone else, and I'm sorry folks, hateful, mean, and unkind are still the same no matter who is saying it. Any new person coming on to this forum now, and reading a whole lot of posts, would wonder if this is a place where they would even want to be. Peace

...................................................................................................YES!

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:26 pm

a) Why do you write three posts in a row when you could simply update your previous post with additional material?

b) My taking that woman to task for her shoddy work and subsequent disingenous entrance to the website has nothing to do with criticism of your monotonous mentions of Brown and Billy and you know it, Perfesser.

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:06 pm

I usually stay out of this kind of thing.

I can't figure out why the Ignore Button is not taking care of things here. Unless members are going back and undoing it to see what was said. If the Ignore Button is used it should take care of most of it. If quotes get through the Ignore Button then members have to ignore them too.

It's like Big Bully from School, you meet him in the Hall every day. Everytime he passes you in the Hall he makes some provoking coment. If you answer him, it leads to a Fight, if you ignore him you keep on walking. We deal with this in our everyday lives, outside of the Forum as well.

Post by **Adminlizzieborden** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:26 am

Yooper @ Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:15 pm wrote:There is a way in which all of this makes sense, but I would need to know the premise or hypothesis for the "grand social experiment" alluded to. Could you elaborate, Stephani?

The forum is a collection of its members. It does not have my personality nor the personality of any one person. It is a living breathing social network of eclectic individuals. Just as American Democracy is a grand social experiment, so is the Internet. I do not mean to say that is WHY the forum exists, just that it can be viewed as such if you step back a bit and take your emotions out of the game and see the ant hill for what it is.

It is my belief that some of you are extremely sensitive to what others say and overreact emotionally to perceived rudeness, while others are justifiably affronted by bad behavior. Some of you react at the slightest slight, while others let things roll of their backs and go about their merry way.

There is as wide a range of reactions to posts here as there are people reacting. This issue is not black and white and there are no good guys and bad guys. It is full of shades of gray. And as such, as moderator, I have to take this into consideration when I do my job. You who are so very close to the emotional aspect of the relationships here may not see what I see.

One thing I find fascinating is that now I am being labeled as taking sides or selling out somehow in this problem because I have not banned anyone for this latest round of arguments. I believe I was accused, publicly, of being in someone's pocket or having no principles for my decisions here in this matter.

Let me take this opportunity to say, publicly, that my principles in this matter are such that statements of this kind are allowed to be made and the person not scolded for their assertions as to my character. I am of the belief that ingorance reveals itself for what it is: a lack of knowledge. I do not choose to respond to those who disagree with me or call me out for the express intent of engaging me in some heated argument.

I suggest that the members here do the same. Use the ignore button. Walk away from a fight for a change, and I beleive that you will see things calm down here if you ALL participate in the calming down.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:46 pm

AMEN!!!
I will try to be more sensitive to others, in so far as it is possible for an old dog that can't learn new tricks.

That story about school bullies is interesting. Being "about average in size" I had some confrontations in Grammar school. I learned you should never back down. In a fight with someone bigger and stronger, grab hold and wrestle him to the ground. That evened things out. Under those circumstances a draw was a win for me. Somebody always showed up to break it up. I got along with those who were from my neighborhood.
I had some pushing and shoving in high school, but I learned to project power.
Once I shot up in height at 16, I no longer had some of these problems.
I don't look for trouble, it will often find me.

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:53 pm

Amen to your Amen RayS!

Having grown up in New York City school yards and being over 6 foot tall, I know exactly what you mean.

Stefani's words are true for all of us and I learned from them myself.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:54 pm

I have not posted anything at all on this subject. But since everyone else has this is my take on things. I completely agree with Stef. RayS doesn't have to bother me if I don't let him. If there is something I find offensive in one of his posts I choose to skip down to the next poster and ignore it. If there are comments directed at me I try to respond in a non confrontational way. When his posts contain information that seems to show some real insight into the case, I answer them. There have been times when I believe RayS made some pretty good points about the case. They just seem to get buried in all the drama.

I have pretty much stayed away from the threads started about Brown and the Proof of his theory. Why? Too much negativity involved there in my opinion for there to be any real serious discussion. RayS doesn't know me personally, or know anything about me as I am in real life. So why do I have to take anything he says that may seem what you all call "offensive" that personally? Why should I choose to let him bother me? I can scroll right past and not even read anything he says if I so choose. Thats my power. Those of you who cannot do this are giving him the power to offend you. Remember a fire that is denied oxygen will soon burn out.